Evidence of meeting #5 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was henderson.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Henderson  As an Individual
Boutilier  Professor, As an Individual
Lajeunesse  Associate Professor, Canadian Maritime Security Network
Eschuk  National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON

The government has given us mixed messaging over the integration of the Coast Guard into DND. They've claimed that the Coast Guard will remain a civilian force and will not be converted to an armed fighting unit. How would a civilian force be effective at countering potentially armed ships, be it in the Arctic, the Atlantic or the Pacific, for that matter?

9:10 a.m.

Associate Professor, Canadian Maritime Security Network

Adam Lajeunesse

The crux of this is the question of confrontation. The Coast Guard is neither intended nor will be intended to actually do that confrontation. This move is intended to increase their surveillance capability and their communications with the Canadian Armed Forces. In principle, the idea here is that the Coast Guard icebreakers in the Arctic will provide situational awareness so that if we need to confront someone, the Canadian navy and air force, which will exist in the background and be in the area, can do the actual confrontation.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON

Are the Canadian Rangers equipped to confront Chinese or Russian combatants if they were ever to intrude into our Arctic?

9:10 a.m.

Associate Professor, Canadian Maritime Security Network

Adam Lajeunesse

No, certainly not, and they're not intended to. Neither the Canadian Armed Forces nor the Rangers would tell you that they are frontline combat forces. Very similar to what we're talking about on the water, the Rangers are the eyes and ears of the CAF. They are there to tell the Canadian Armed Forces when someone is there who is not meant to be there. They are not meant to be doing the fighting.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Thank you.

I'm passing it over to Mr. Watchorn.

You have five minutes.

Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank all the witnesses for being here with us.

Yesterday evening, I had an opportunity to go to the Fisheries Council of Canada, where I met with people who work at Fisheries and Oceans Canada. Most of them support the idea of integrating the Canadian Coast Guard into the military.

From what I'm hearing today, all or almost all of the witnesses are in favour of integrating it. Our government has announced massive investments in the Coast Guard, the Royal Canadian Navy and the Royal Canadian Air Force.

Professor Boutilier, how do you think all that new equipment and all those purchases, including those being made for the Coast Guard, can be integrated in such a way as to protect our northern, eastern and western borders?

9:15 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

James Boutilier

Thank you very much for that question. It is, in many ways, the central question going forward.

As I suggested in my preliminary observations, time, ladies and gentlemen, is not on our side. We have a series of ambitious programs going forward, but the phasing of those programs is awful. When you look at the Royal Canadian Navy, it has its Halifax class frigates, which are superb workhorses. However, they are coming towards the very end of their operational lives, and it will still be another 10 years before the replacements will be commissioned and begin to move into service. Similarly, we've seen the government's announcement that they plan to purchase 12 submarines. Regardless of the source, it will be another 10 years before these are fully operational—and we could say that about one or two other weapons systems, like the F-35s and so forth.

Not only do we have an enormous deficit that needs to be addressed—a legacy of failed government expenditure over the past 25 years—but we find ourselves in a situation where the timing is not attractive. The same failure to provide the latest equipment and so forth applies, of course—as we've seen from the testimony—to the Canadian Coast Guard.

It will be a major challenge, I think, going forward in the mid-2030s, when many of those reanimation programs in fact begin to come together, not only in terms of equipment and the integration of cultures but, as our colleagues have said, in terms of whether we can attract and retain personnel. All of these systems will begin to be operational, more or less, in mid-decade. Until that time, all we can do—and that's why I suggested it to you in my formal comments—is move with a sense of wartime urgency. This is serious stuff. We have dragged our feet for far too long. We've accepted self-congratulatory excuses, and this is no longer adequate for either the Coast Guard or the navy.

Your point is very well taken. This is a major integrative challenge, not only from a cultural perspective but from a physical one. I think, from my own experience, that the senior leadership in the navy—which is inspired, and we're very lucky to have excellent people at the top—and of the Coast Guard is eager to get on with getting on, so we have to streamline the bureaucratic processes to make this happen as quickly as possible.

Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC

Thank you for that answer.

My next question is for you, Ms. Eschuk.

You talked about the closure of some Marine Security Operations Centres, or MSOCs. Can you tell us which MSOCs were closed recently?

9:15 a.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

Teresa Eschuk

I'm sorry. The translation wasn't great, but I'm going to try to answer the question. I didn't get the—

Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC

I can ask it in English, if you want.

9:15 a.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

Teresa Eschuk

Yes, please.

Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC

I heard you talk about MSOC bases closing. I'd like you to enumerate the ones that were closed, and then I'm going to ask somebody else a question about why they were closed.

9:20 a.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

Teresa Eschuk

I have to remember where the four centres were that were closed, but they went to three main ones. They have one on the east coast, one in central Canada and one in the west, I believe. There are barriers when it comes down to that. I'm sorry, but I don't have that data exactly in front of me. However, I do know—

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

I'm going to postpone that response until later, if I may, Tim. We are a bit over time.

Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, you have two and a half minutes.

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC

Mr. Chair, don't reduce my speaking time, but can we get some information about what the interpretation issue was? I want to make sure it doesn't happen again. Usually there are sound checks before the meeting to avoid this kind of thing.

9:20 a.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

Teresa Eschuk

I'm sorry, but I didn't get the interpretation.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Do you have your interpretation on the English channel?

9:20 a.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

Teresa Eschuk

Yes, I do, but what I'm hearing is the speaker, and then the interpretation is coming in very low behind the speaker.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Increase your volume.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I have the same thing.

9:20 a.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

Teresa Eschuk

I have it at 80%.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Can someone increase the volume for the interpreters? It occurs with me as well.

9:20 a.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees

Teresa Eschuk

Thank you.

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC

Mr. Chair, were sound checks done before the meeting?

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

The tests were done. What I normally find myself doing is increasing the volume every time the interpreters are being used. The volume falls right back down, so I have to physically increase it.

Do you want to try increasing your volume when Mr. Savard-Tremblay is speaking and see if that works for you?