Evidence of meeting #5 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was henderson.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Mr. Henderson, we would welcome your response. What I would suggest is sending it in via written notice, unfortunately. I am sorry.
We are a bit over time at this point. I am giving a bit of grace, given the difficulties.
Mr. Henderson, thank you.
I'm going to move it over now to Mr. Chris Malette.
You have five minutes.
Liberal
Chris Malette Liberal Bay of Quinte, ON
Thank you, Chair.
My question is for Mr. Lajeunesse and Mr. Henderson, but Mr. Henderson seems to be having some connectivity issues.
Are you aware of any overlapping services that the Royal Canadian Navy and the Coast Guard both currently offer that will be amalgamated and/or streamlined in this upcoming merger in order to reduce any redundancies but not reduce services or resources for both the military and fish harvesters, as part of this merger?
Associate Professor, Canadian Maritime Security Network
I don't believe there are any obvious overlaps that will create redundancies. If anything, the sum will be greater than its parts. That is the point here—that what we have now are two federal fleets working in silos and, indeed, creating redundancies in communication and surveillance. If the two can work together, share a common marine domain awareness and operating picture, this will facilitate both the security defence and the safety tasks.
Conservative
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I think it's unfortunate that Mr. Henderson isn't able to participate. Could we ask him to maybe log out and come back into the system? His system is freezing up. I don't know if it's the speed of the Wi-Fi, the broadband or whatever he is using. Perhaps if he logs out and comes back in, we'll be able to hear him better.
It's important that we have his participation.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Can the technicians work on that separately while we continue our meeting? Is that possible?
Mr. Henderson, let's try that. Log off, and we'll try to get you back on.
Liberal
Liberal
Professor, As an Individual
To further the question about the two services, I think that when we look at the Arctic, what we see, in many ways, is a landscape that is breathtakingly under-understood, in the sense that in many cases you'll see in charts of the Canadian north a single line of soundings that dates from somewhere in the 19th century. The collection of data, whether it's hydrographic or whether it relates to the salinity and so forth.... Whether it comes from the Coast Guard or the navy, both of those services can contribute to the combined picture.
That's further to the question you were kind enough to put a moment ago.
Thank you.
Liberal
Chris Malette Liberal Bay of Quinte, ON
Briefly, further to that, for either Mr. Boutilier or Ms. Eschuk, for the harvesters and fishers who possibly could be worried about a potential loss of capacity or resources in switching the Coast Guard from DFO to the Department of National Defence, could you reassure them that this is a good path forward that will work to merge capacities and will not reduce services to them, and will possibly even enhance available resources and safety opportunities for them?
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
I can address that. I have already assured my members that we believe this is a good move, over to DND.
When it comes down to surveillance or to integrating into DND, as long as it remains a civil organization, you can enhance its services. As I said, the MSOCs, with their surveillance, can analyze that data and get it back to the powers that be that need it.
Also, I think our lighthouse keepers are underutilized. They used to provide a line of defence, and that seems to have gone away.
I do reassure our members that I believe the move to DND is a good move, in regard to funding and falling under the purview of that minister.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank our witnesses. It's unfortunate that Mr. Henderson has been in and out.
I just want to follow up a little bit more on the talk around the future of the Canadian Coast Guard. I think everyone around the table agrees that putting them into the national defence mandate is appropriate, while recognizing the fact that not everything they do is national defence, whether it's navigation, icebreaking or science. Very little of that has anything to do with national defence, and including that part of their budget under national defence for the NATO matrix, I think, is creative accounting at best. As well, it doesn't provide any kinetic capabilities to the Canadian Armed Forces.
However, three out of our four witnesses—Mr. Boutilier, Mr. Lajeunesse and Mr. Henderson—all talked about constabulary interdiction capabilities, potentially some weapons on ships and a law enforcement role.
One thing I look at is that we had, at one point in time, Canada Border Services agents who were not armed, and now they are. It took some time, and I think Mr. Henderson alluded to the fact that what is required is a change in culture.
We have the MV Asterix, which serves as a supply ship to the Royal Canadian Navy and has a crew that is both civilian and navy.
Mr. Lajeunesse, you talked about the potential of officer training on Coast Guard vessels. Would it make sense, if we want to keep the Coast Guard civilian staff, to put more navy officers and sailors on Coast Guard vessels so that they can do interdictions and do more on the national security front and in law enforcement, as was alluded to by Mr. Henderson, especially if we go to a new Canadian Coast Guard act?
Associate Professor, Canadian Maritime Security Network
Let me state that when I say that it's a good idea to move naval personnel onto Coast Guard vessels, I'm speaking purely of the training perspective. We do not have the RCN vessels available to do sea training, so that is a training possibility.
We don't need RCN personnel in order to undertake constabulary interdictions. RCN has no mandate for that, and neither does the Coast Guard.
I do agree with Mr. Henderson's point that part of the CCG does require a stronger constabulary interdiction mandate—for which we currently use ship riders who are DFO or RCMP—but it would require a shift in its legal mandate to undertake those operations. That shift doesn't require navy personnel. Coast Guard personnel can do those interdictions.
Conservative
Associate Professor, Canadian Maritime Security Network
With proper training, of course.... Absolutely, it would be a longer-term development.
Conservative
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
Yes, I just want to add something really quickly. I'm not saying I'm for or against adding navy personnel to the vessels. However, you have to consider the size of the vessels and whether they actually have the room to house those extra personnel. I think the committee needs to take that into consideration.
Thank you.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I appreciate that.
When we are talking about new ships being built for the Coast Guard.... There are a number of them under construction right now, and a lot of them are science vessels—which, again, wouldn't have much of a role from a national defence standpoint—but if we're looking at icebreakers or some of the Coast Guard cutters that are doing coastal surveillance, would it make sense to put some weapons on board as we move forward?
Professor Boutilier, go ahead.
Professor, As an Individual
I think I might challenge your suggestion or intimation that because they're scientific, they're not of value. I think central to all of this is that the Coast Guard, among other things, expands the navy's eyes and ears dramatically, which is something it desperately needs.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
If we can do this on all vessels, whether it's icebreakers, science vessels or Coast Guard cutters, what should we put on these new ones that are coming forward, and what can we do to the existing fleet to make it better from the standpoint of both defence and surveillance?
Professor, As an Individual
In my estimation, it's not necessary to provide arms on new scientific Coast Guard vessels. That may be subject to debate.
Clearly, what we need, I think, are enhancements for the Coast Guard fleet in terms of communications and sensors, so that they can expand the array of readings they take while they're operational on our coasts.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Okay.
I have just a quick question for Teresa.
We heard earlier that employees of the Canadian Coast Guard will now be considered part of the National Defence employee network and will have access to both the ombudsman and the military sexual misconduct centre. Where do you fall on how we deal with Coast Guard employees going forward under the National Defence services? Would you consider them to be veterans?