Evidence of meeting #5 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was henderson.
A recording is available from Parliament.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
That's an interesting question. That discussion hasn't taken place.
I wouldn't consider them veterans of DND. They'd be veterans of the Coast Guard, which is a totally different entity.
That discussion hasn't taken place, or I haven't been asked or consulted on that. I think that's a piece that's missing.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
Thank you.
My first question is for Professor Boutilier.
What lessons can Canada take from allied nations that have moved or have more closely aligned their naval and coast guard operations? How might this kind of integration strengthen Canada's ability to coordinate with partners through NATO, Arctic co-operation and Indo-Pacific partnerships?
Professor, As an Individual
One of the leading examples is, of course, China, but, from a Canadian perspective, we draw the wrong conclusion from there, in the sense that the Chinese have a huge coast guard—the largest in the world—but it is a paramilitary force that is utilized as the tip of the spear in terms of Chinese naval operations. There's nothing that we can draw from that experience, other than to realize that there are countries that use their coast guard in a way that's completely alien to our own concepts.
There is a robust coast guard community in the Indo-Pacific, coast guards that collaborate or coordinate in the north Pacific. It is yet another arm of our reputational challenge, in the sense that if we look at the Indo-Pacific strategy from November 2022, what we see is the failure to use our presence to advance Canada's brand in the region. That's why, of course, the Indo-Pacific strategy called for the RCN to deploy on a consistent basis into the region. The Coast Guard is another arm of that presence, to build relations with the maritime community in the Pacific.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
I was struck when you said in your opening testimony that the key word for all of us here today was “urgency” and that we couldn't be “laggards” any longer.
If you were to look ahead 10 or 20 years from now, how do you see the integration of the Coast Guard into National Defence helping Canada sustain its sovereignty and security in contested waters like the Arctic?
Professor, As an Individual
I think that we have failed abjectly over the decades with our Arctic strategy. We have had a great deal of rhetoric and almost no reality. Of course, one can argue that it's extremely expensive to establish infrastructure and so forth, but if you look, for example, at the Nanisivik exercise, we see that 18 years have unfolded and nothing has been achieved.
Personally, I would like to see a regular rotation of RCN officers onto Coast Guard vessels and vice versa. I think that we have a cultural integration issue that we need to address. The personal links between the players are vitally important, so that they don't act as two separate communities, even though they have different responsibilities.
The Arctic is so colossally large that we desperately need every resource we can get. The Coast Guard is so integrated into the tiny communities of the north that this provides enormous value added to the Royal Canadian Navy.
Going forward, I see a greater synergy and value added from this decision to incorporate.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
Mr. Lajeunesse, from your perspective, how could this integration help Canada build stronger partnerships, specifically with Arctic allies such as Norway and Denmark, which face similar challenges in the north?
Associate Professor, Canadian Maritime Security Network
That's a very good question.
I think it's unlikely that the Canadian Coast Guard will be deployed abroad to the European Arctic region. That's simply not what it's designed for. This is a coastal force. However, within the North American context, I think we're already starting to see opportunities to integrate with the United States Navy and the U.S. Coast Guard.
This summer, we had an icebreaker that was essentially shadowing a Chinese vessel as it moved up through the Bering Strait. Whether that was intentional or not remains to be determined, but the fact that it was there and that it was relieving American forces that were not present provides Canada with something to offer in continental defence and, indeed, even builds a bit of a dependency among the American forces on our greater Arctic capability. Therefore, integrating the Coast Guard with DND is also going to facilitate integration into the larger continental defence picture.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Mr. Henderson, I hope you can hear all of us at this point. We're going to test you out in a moment with Monsieur Savard-Tremblay.
Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, you have two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Eschuk, let's talk more about the new mandate. You said there wasn't a lot of consultation. You also said you had concerns because the new mandate might not be consistent with the conditions of employment for most of the staff or with their mission. Do you have some reassurance around that now?
I would also like to ask you if you think transition measures should be implemented.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
Yes, again, this happened so quickly, without consultation. From what I was told, even the Coast Guard was caught off guard. I think that, if you're looking at expanding their national scope and the national security, that consultation does have to take place with us and with the members to see if they're capable of doing that and to see if that's what they wish to do.
As you know, they all have signed letters of offer and have their conditions of employment. When you're changing those conditions of employment, people need to think of where their future lies and whether it's within the Coast Guard or somewhere else they need to go in order to fulfill their career. For the Coast Guard members, it's their career. It's not just a job to them; it's a career. If you're changing the parameters of their duties, then they need to have the opportunity, and they have to want to continue on with that, but they have to know what that means.
Today, we don't know what that means. The consultation hasn't taken place, and I'm wondering if the consultation hasn't taken place because DND and the Coast Guard don't know how that looks as a future. I think what this committee is trying to do is determine what the future of the Coast Guard looks like, but as of today, there's a big question mark of what that means to my members.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
You shared concerns about the fact that this could impact recruitment, hiring, necessary skills and naval resources required to fulfill the new mandate.
Do you have anything to add about that?
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
Again, the biggest problem is the recruitment issue. I'll use the lighthouse keepers as an example. They're all term employees. Why? During a strike, they're deemed essential services, but if they're essential services and if they're that important, then why aren't they hired as indeterminate? That would give them job security. A lot of our members on the vessels are term employees.
They had an initiative called “stop the clock”, where after five years they had an automatic rollover into the indeterminate positions. I was able, successfully, with the commissioner, to get DFO to rescind that for our term employees so that the clock was still ticking, and after three years, they were able to get the indeterminate status. It's a big concern that they cannot get that guarantee—after three years they have a job—and their term may be ending. You need to be able to hire these members indeterminately, rather than with term employment.
Those are the biggest problems with recruitment: the term employment and the status of their jobs in the future.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Thank you very much.
I've allowed a bit of flexibility in the questioning up to this point. We're down to only two more. If I may suggest, Mr. Bezan will be up next, and then Sherry could wrap it up. I think that will be it for the meeting today.
Actually, it won't be, because I want to talk to you about something else afterwards, if we can go in camera then.
Go ahead, Mr. Bezan.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be splitting my time with Mr. Kibble, so I'll try to keep this very short.
I'm hoping, Mr. Henderson, that you're going to be able to participate.
You mentioned the change in culture that might need to happen within the Canadian Coast Guard. Having served in both the Royal Canadian Navy and the Coast Guard, what do you think needs to happen from a cultural standpoint, especially if we bring in a Canadian Coast Guard act that will provide some of that law enforcement and interdiction capability within CCG?
As an Individual
Thank you for that question.
I hope you can hear me sufficiently. I am hearing you very well [Technical difficulty—Editor].
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
The interpreters will determine whether or not they can do a proper job.
Liberal
As an Individual
Regarding a culture change, I think one of the important things is that the Coast Guard and the Department of National Defence need to take a long view, because, as Madame Eschuk has pointed out, it is a challenging and difficult transition to make and people need to understand what their conditions of service are and will be, and that can take a considerable length of time.
One of my experiences was with the Canada Border Services Agency when they were arming, and they gave themselves 10 years. They probably should have given themselves 20 years for that culture change—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
I apologize, but they can't get translation. We'll go to another witness.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
That's unfortunate, but I do encourage Mr. Henderson to send in a written submission addressing some of the questions we've had so that we can get his input, because I think his experience and knowledge are going to be very valuable to us in wrapping up recommendations when we provide our report to the House for consideration.
With that, I'll turn it over to Mr. Kibble.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you very much.
We mentioned grey zones and hybrid threats. Indeed, Bill C-2 does not commit the Coast Guard to some of those missions, and we determined that it doesn't have this military capability or it's not going to be moving in that direction.
Is the Coast Guard currently capable of law enforcement interdiction?