Evidence of meeting #17 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was brunswick.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dan Tolgyesi  President and Chief Executive Officer, Québec Mining Association
Sam McEwan  Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources, Government of New Brunswick

3:45 p.m.

Sam McEwan Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources, Government of New Brunswick

Thank you very much for inviting New Brunswick to attend.

I understand the focus is on development of mining in the north. As you're probably very much aware, New Brunswick doesn't really fall into that category. Northern New Brunswick gets a lot of snow in the winter, but beyond that we're very much different from, say, the far north of Canada.

As such, what I propose to do is give a brief overview of where we are with mining in the province, some of the issues and things of that nature that may relate to the north, but there are some common issues throughout.

New Brunswick has a long history of mining, which started in 1639 with the sale and transport of coal from the Minto area to Boston, so we've been involved in this for quite a while. The more recent history has been focused on base metal development and potash or industrial minerals.

New Brunswick has a very diverse geology. We're a small province but we have sedimentary basins. We have igneous formations and volcanics and so on, and as a result we have a full variety of minerals that are being looked at and have been exploited over the years. That includes base metals, lead, zinc, copper, molybdenum, tungsten, precious metals, industrial minerals like potash, salt, limestone, and also hydrocarbons, as I mentioned, in our carboniferous basins, which are coal, and more recently natural gas and oil. We've been an oil and gas producer for over 100 years, shale gas being the flavour of the day here, as it is in many other provinces.

It's fine to say that we have all these minerals and we are a small province, but at the same time we have also produced world-class deposits. I guess the primary one we have produced for a long period of time is Xstrata's Brunswick Mine. It has operated for close to 50 years, and it was the largest underground lead-zinc mine in the world. I believe it could still retain that title. It is due to close shortly, in 2013.

We also produce two world-class potash deposits. One is still operating. That would be the Potash Corporation of Saskatchewan's mine in Sussex. We've also had several mid-sized base-metal mines over the years.

Because we have a small province—and this is very different from the north—we do have a labyrinth of roads that are primarily related to the forest industry, which provides ready access to the entire province for the purposes of exploration. We don't get involved with helicopters very often. I guess that's the best way to put it. We have year-round, industrial-sized ports providing access to world markets, rail access, and a very well-trained, industry-oriented workforce.

Mining offers a huge economic opportunity for New Brunswick: well-paid skilled jobs. A lot of these operations are looking at the rural communities with regard to their location. A couple of really good examples would be Bathurst and Sussex. These are small towns—to start with they were probably villages—and they've expanded into very successful municipalities because of the mining industry associated with them. They are doing very well from an economic perspective.

We have seen firsthand the effect that mining can have on the rural community, and specifically on municipalities in close proximity. That's not to say that the supply chain benefits—it benefits throughout the province. Fabrication shops and various associated industries supply the mining industry in the province, and again they can be found throughout the province, so the benefits are not just localized.

Needless to say, there are also direct benefits to the province through royalties, taxes, and fees. We've had some very significant royalties paid over the previous years, which have certainly assisted us.

If you boil that down, when we look at our sister provinces—specifically Newfoundland and Saskatchewan—New Brunswick is a have-not province, and we feel that mining could certainly be a major contributor in converting us from a have-not province to a have province. So we really are focused on the mining aspect.

Currently we have one major expansion going on in potash. The PCS mine is expanding to the tune of $1.7 billion. That's about three-quarters of the way completed.

We have two mid-sized base-metal mines, lead-zinc mines in the north, that are currently under feasibility.... One has actually begun development. And we have two mid-sized tungsten-molybdenum mines in the south that are in the feasibility stage.

That being said, we've certainly had our issues. We have a history of environmental impact from mining: acid mine drainage resulting in polluted rivers; soil and air contamination from smelting; and significant land disturbance from a coal strip mining operation. But it should be pointed out that this damage was done at a time when really there were no environmental rules in place to speak of. It was back in the 1950s and 1960s, as I said, which is recent history.

Today we do have a very rigorous mine approval process and very comprehensive legislation to back it up.

That being said, in line with what the previous presenter said, there is always room for improvement, and we recognize that. We are looking at regulatory reform. The current government is focused on that with regard to trying to strike a balance so that we have transparent, effective, efficient, and comprehensive legislation. That is on the table for review to try to deal with some of the issues that were raised by the previous presenters.

Aboriginal title and participation are new to New Brunswick. We haven't really had to deal with those until recently, and of course they're a little different here than they are in the western provinces, with our treaties. So we're kind of on the learning curve in that regard. However, we established a lands and resources bilateral table in 2010 to initiate discussion with first nations communities regarding natural resource management activities, licences, and policies. That's ongoing, and we feel it is progressing very well.

As well, we've had one company, Trevali, which I referred to, actually start the development of a base-metal mine in the northern part of the province. They've entered into an impact benefits agreement with the local Mi 'kmaq and Maliseet Nations, and everybody seems quite pleased with the results of that. We looked at that. This company is from Manitoba, so they have experience in entering into these agreements. They have set the benchmark for New Brunswick, and I think they've done an excellent job in that regard.

One of the biggest issues for us at the moment—and again this is probably very different from what you would find in the north, because we are a small province—is social licence. We're dealing with that certainly on the shale gas side, but that is spilling over into the mining side as well. The issue there is that the general public can be very negatively influenced by minority interest groups that have what we feel are somewhat biased objectives. There is distribution of significant misinformation through social networking. The social network in New Brunswick is alive and real and very well connected. Sometimes this is viewed as an urban versus rural dispute as well. With some of the mines being in rural settings, rural people feel they may be impacted more than people living in cities will be.

People fail to make the connection between the opportunity for economic development that mining brings and the ability to afford all of those necessary services, such as medical services, education, infrastructure, etc. They don't seem to really put that together very well. They view it as mainly big companies making a lot of money, coming in and making a mess and leaving, and leaving the cleanup for us.

Royalties were mentioned. They also feel that the government is not getting their fair share of royalties and that we need to do something about that. This current government is reviewing royalties, all royalties, in the province, so there may be an impact or a change there.

They also feel that there's insufficient legislation and oversight. We feel that our legislation is certainly comprehensive at this time, but there's always room for improvement.

They have a definitive position on mine development. They feel it will impact the natural and social environments negatively. It may or it may not. It's being presented as a fact that if you do this, it will impact those environments.

Bottom line, they don't trust or believe either industry or government when they try to explain the situation.

I just want to mention some of the federal government initiatives and the role the federal government can maybe play.

We would suggest that the focus of the federal government be on the environment, safety, and health. One of the initiatives the federal government has come out with, which I think is quite positive, is the Major Projects Management Office. That seems to be working very well. We haven't had a lot of exposure to that, again, because a lot of the projects we have aren't major. They're smaller.

The green mining initiative, again, is something we feel is a very positive step forward. We feel the federal government should be the coordinator of that type of thing.

It is the same for MEND, or the mine environment neutral drainage program. That's proven to be very beneficial for us, in many respects.

The last thing is not really mining. It's Environment Canada's approach to shale gas. It asked the Council of Canadian Academies to do an assessment of the state of scientific knowledge on the potential environmental impacts of shale gas development. Again, I would go back to saying that the public tends not to believe industry or government, but they do tend to believe academia from time to time, so I think that's a very positive approach.

Having said all that, I'll sum up very quickly.

There are a lot of good things going on. There are a lot of issues out there. One of the key things is communicating to the public everything we are doing along these lines to try to address these issues.That's what we find the most difficult part of this. I think there's a role for the federal government in that respect. Communication is really key, certainly in a province like New Brunswick, to inform people about what we are doing and how we're doing it and to tell them that we do have their best interests at heart.

That ends my presentation.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. McEwan.

We'll go now directly to questions, starting with Mr. Allen, for up to seven minutes.

November 30th, 2011 / 4 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today, especially Mr. McEwan from New Brunswick. It's good to see you again.

We've heard questions and comments in previous testimony, as we've been doing our study, especially in the north, about there being a lot of delays. We heard stories about situations where initial approval for a mine was given, and then it could be five more years before all the permits could be obtained from DFO, for example, and some others.

Mr. McEwan, I have had a little bit of experience with the tungsten and molybdenum mine, which is actually in the south end of my riding, out in the Stanley area. I've seen the challenges in the social media, and others as well, with respect to that mine.

The terms of reference process took a little while to do. The company is now preparing an environmental assessment over the next year, and then apparently it will wait a year for approval.

Can you talk a little about the regulatory and permitting process for a mine like that in New Brunswick? Furthermore, could you comment a little bit on whether there has been any interaction with the Major Project Management Office on that? Is there any duplication of effort you see between the province and the federal government in the whole process of potentially getting that mine going?

4 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources, Government of New Brunswick

Sam McEwan

Based on what I know, yes, you're absolutely right. From my experience with the mine approval process, a lot of companies do come in with the idea that this can be done in probably six months or in that order. This company didn't come in with that understanding. It knew it would take some time. It needed time to do its studies and so on. A lot of the studies that are done probably have to take at least a one-year cycle. It got out very early.

It has also been listening to what we've been saying, and it got out very early to engage the public and to engage first nations, and things of that nature. This is one of those things where, when you do that, especially when you engage the public, when you introduce the fact that you're looking at developing a mine, the public wants all the answers up front.

Of course, if you're out that early, you're just dealing with a concept more than anything else. It has been involved in this for probably a couple of years now as far as actually dealing with the public and explaining what its plans are and working on developing the terms of reference for its environmental impact assessment, and so on. That's done.

My understanding is that the way it's working, I guess the obvious overlap or duplication could be with the EIAs, the federal EIA and the provincial EIA, and that seems to be geared to the size of the project, and also the potential impact on the federal responsibilities such as fisheries, and so on.

I know that in the past we have worked to harmonize those two so that there is only one EIA, the federal government working with our provincial government environment department to ensure that there is no overlap and duplication, and I believe that's what's happening in this particular instance. I do believe they are involved with the major projects office, but I haven't been directly involved with that, so I don't know any of the specifics with regard to whether they've taken appropriate steps to streamline or not. Based on past history, that is the critical thing, the two EIAs.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans—and you've probably heard this many times—tends to be a bit of a sticking point from time to time as far as that goes, and it takes its mandate very seriously. We've had a couple of instances where we really questioned where it's coming from, and it has caused delays and does introduce elements of the unknown, I guess, for development of properties.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

What is the current royalty scheme in New Brunswick? And is there a case to be made for maybe a north and south of 60, or a south of 60 one-size-fits-all regulatory process?

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources, Government of New Brunswick

Sam McEwan

The regulatory regime in New Brunswick is basically...for the royalties, we have what we call a net revenue tax, which is 2%, and then a net profits tax, which is 16%. That means that no matter how well or badly a mine is doing, we will receive some revenue on an annual basis from a mine. That would be the 2%. I guess we've also been very fortunate with the 16% from time to time. But generally speaking, over my experience with this, the 16% isn't paid very often because...well, I guess we've gone through some rough times with mining, and as was indicated, certainly price plays a major role with what you're going to receive along that line, and currency exchanges and so on.

We have done very well from Xstrata. I think in 2007-08 we were certainly in excess of $120 million in royalties from them. Of course, that was when the price was $2 a pound versus 32¢ a pound, which it had been for a number of years previously.

Sorry, what was the second part of your question?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Do you think there's a case to be made for a common, one-size-fits-all regulatory process on the approval process?

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources, Government of New Brunswick

Sam McEwan

There is that possibility, but I think it would be at a high level, because various jurisdictions across the country, north to south, have different issues to contend with. I go back to what I was saying with regard to the size of New Brunswick: it's a small province. People are very much aware of what's going on, whereas if you were in, say, northern Saskatchewan or in northern Canada somewhere, it isn't as much in your face, I guess is the thing. There could be some regional differences.

Generally speaking, there should be a one size fits all as far as how you deal with the various components—the environment, the social impact, all those things. Both industry and the public should be able to walk away from this, satisfied that the job has been well done and they've been listened to and dealt with.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, and thank you, Mr. Allen.

We go now to Madame Day for up to seven minutes.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I would like to talk to the representatives from the Quebec Mining Association.

We are going through difficult economic times. The Deloitte report that came out recently talks about necessary reductions, about energy efficiency and about automating work. So that means that some companies are starting to use driverless trucks and establishing remote control centres.

How are you going to reconcile the fact that the sector has to create jobs, especially for Aboriginal people, with the automation that we know is coming? Is that a concern for you?

4:05 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Québec Mining Association

Dan Tolgyesi

Thank you, Madam.

First, like all industrial sectors, the mining sector is trying to become more automated, mechanized and so forth. In part, that is to reduce the workers' exposure to danger where necessary and, in part, it is to improve procedures and systems.

That said, as you can see, we are experiencing a labour shortage in Quebec. So if we do not become more mechanized, we are going to have a real problem. While we may have automated trucks that require no driver, they do need someone else, a technician to maintain the network and the system. So there is a shift, an evolution in the skills we need. Instead of a truck driver, we need an electrician, or a technician or mechanic trained in electronics. In a way, the knowledge and skill of our workforce has increased.

Second, I mentioned that conditions in the north are quite tough. We have to consider this as we look at ways to expose our staff to those conditions as little as possible. In underground mines, we use mechanization so that operators can work well away from the equipment; that keeps them out of harm's way.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

We know that Aboriginal people are not going to be able to train as electricians and engineers in a few weeks. How are you going to go about hiring them as part of the agreement you have with their territories?

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Québec Mining Association

Dan Tolgyesi

Clearly, there is an evolution in the jobs and in the expertise and experience of the employees. I have worked in the mines as an operator. I have managed mines. Aboriginal people worked as technicians, mechanics and so on. They are ready, willing and able to learn. It's a question of structuring the training properly. That's the first thing.

Then there is something that we have not talked about but that was mentioned in our presentation. We have to help Aboriginal people develop their business acumen as they learn. The work actually involves a cultural shift. Mine work is very cyclical: so much time on, so much time off. That is difficult from the traditional Aboriginal way of life. So there is a period of adjustment. After that, we have no problem with the Aboriginal people; they adapt well.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Yes, you did mention your relationship with Aboriginal people in your presentation. I'm talking about the issues. You talked about infrastructure. You also t alked about the administration and about reducing it a little.

I would like to ask you about energy. What kind of energy do you use? Do you have problems with energy in your operations?

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Québec Mining Association

Dan Tolgyesi

In the south at the moment, we have access to electricity and gas. In the north, we do not. What we do is ship fuel oil or diesel to the sites by truck or by boat, store it there and use generators to produce electricity. That's how it works.

So that's why mining companies are trying to find alternate sources of energy. In the far north, for example, the Raglan mine is looking at trying wind power.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Madame Day, you have some time left, but the bells have started. If they're half-hour bells, we probably wouldn't be able to get back here until 5:10 or so, if we were to come back. Could we finish the first round of questioning and then allow the witnesses to leave and end our meeting at that time? Is that the way to handle things? Is that agreed?

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Very good. Thank you very much.

So we will finish the round of questioning.

Madame Day, we stopped the clock. You have a couple of minutes left.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Okay.

On a totally different topic, could you tell me what percentage of the minerals is processed in Quebec and exported?

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Québec Mining Association

Dan Tolgyesi

In Quebec?

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Yes. What do we process domestically?

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Québec Mining Association

Dan Tolgyesi

As mentioned in the presentation, from 1999 to 2000, the value of exported and imported minerals was about $15 billion…

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Of processed minerals.

4:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Québec Mining Association

Dan Tolgyesi

Are you talking about the minerals that are exported from Quebec to be processed?

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Processed in Quebec. What percentage of the minerals is processed in Quebec?