Evidence of meeting #52 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lot.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc D'Iorio  Director General, Office of Energy Research and Development, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Martin Aubé  Director General, Strategic Science-Technology Branch, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Kim Kasperski  Manager, Water Management, Department of Natural Resources

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone.

We're here this morning on a delayed basis, owing to a vote, to start our study on innovation in the energy sector. As usual for studies like this we have officials, in this case from the Department of Natural Resources.

We have witnesses today from the Department of Natural Resources They are Dr. Marc D'Iorio, director general, office of energy research and development, energy sector, and Martin Aubé, director general, strategic science technology branch, innovation and energy technology sector.

Welcome very much, gentlemen. You have a presentation to make, so go ahead with the presentation, and then we'll go to questions and comments.

11:40 a.m.

Dr. Marc D'Iorio Director General, Office of Energy Research and Development, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be giving the presentation.

Thank you for the opportunity to talk about innovation and energy today, with a focus on energy supply. It's an area where Canada does a lot of very good work and work we can be proud of.

For opening remarks I'd like to talk a bit about the global context of the energy outlook, and talk as well about energy and the Canadian economy, because that really sets the frame for what we do in innovation and R and D in the programs that we run.

We'll talk about science innovation activities and some international comparisons, as well as public expenditures in energy research.

To wrap up, I'll talk about some of the technologies that we're focusing on in renewable energy, as well as what we do with respect to oil and gas.

On slide 3 you see the global outlook produced by the International Energy Agency going forward to 2035. What you see is that energy demand is expected to grow by 40% and that fossil fuel will remain the dominant type of fuel being used, about 80% of the total.

Ninety per cent of the growth is in the non-OECD countries, and by 2035 we expect China to be consuming about 20% of all energy produced at that point in time, which will be at that point about 70% more than the U.S.

One note from the IEA as well is that as we go forward, the U.S. is becoming less dependent on energy imports. That will certainly be true by that timeframe.

Slide 4 is a busy slide, but it's really trying to show that energy in Canada is much more than oil and gas. There are other resources such as coal mines and uranium. There is quite a lot of potential for renewable energy in Canada. There is a lot of tidal energy potential, there is nuclear, and there are some refineries, so there is quite an infrastructure right from coast to coast to coast in Canada.

There are also other things that do not fall on this map but are required for energy going forward, things like rare earth minerals, which will be an important part for energy technology going forward.

Slide 5 shows that Canada is a global player in energy. The oil sands are currently estimated at about 180 billion recoverable barrels. This is expected to grow to over 300 billion barrels as technology improves.

For shale gas, 6% of the world's technical recoverable resources are in Canada, and for uranium it's 9% of the known recoverable resources.

Canada has a very clean electricity supply already. Over 75% of our electricity is generated from non-emitting sources, consisting mostly of hydro but also including nuclear and other renewables.

Renewable wind power installed capacity could reach 12,000 megawatts by 2015.

There is also significant potential in a number of areas, both in traditional resources such as oil and gas in the north as well as quite a lot of potential for energy in wind, solar, bio, marine, and geothermal sources.

What Canada does with these resources has significant impact on Canada's economy. As I mentioned, we're third in the world in hydroelectricity production; second in uranium production; third in natural gas production; third in oil reserves, behind Saudi Arabia and Venezuela; and sixth in oil production.

You can see the raw numbers of the contribution to GDP, to employment, and to exports, and 24% of total public and private investments in Canada are related to energy.

In terms of science and innovation in Canada and how we perform in this area, a chart from the OECD on page 7 maps out how Canada does. It's not specific to energy: this is all science and innovation. The graph indicates where Canada is above or below the OECD average.

Canada actually does very well in scientific publication, does well in the number of degrees in science and engineering, in the percentage of researchers employed per thousand employed, and it does well with patent, with foreign co-investors, and with the number of firms with new-to-market products.

Where Canada lags behind is in the business expenditures in R and D, in venture capital as a percentage of GDP, and in what's called GERD, which is the gross expenditures in R and D.

When you then look specifically at what Canada does in energy R and D, Canada ranks third in the world in expenditures with respect to the per cent of national GDP. These are numbers that are derived from the IEA and from the OECD.

The federal government, in this capacity, is a key investor in energy research and development.

We show what percentage of federal investments go towards cleaner fossil fuel, which is about 29%; renewable and clean energy, which is about 43%; distribution, including a pipeline and grids, which is about 12%; and energy efficiency related to transport, buildings, communities, and industry, which is about 16% of our expenditures.

Who else contributes to R and D in Canada? On the supply side, the federal government invests about $468 million per year. The provinces invest about $400 million in energy R and D. The private sector invests $1.2 billion in energy R and D, mostly on the fossil fuel side. This is one place where energy R and D differs from some other S and T areas in Canada, in that industry is contributing quite a lot to the R and D being performed in Canada.

Natural Resources Canada manages a number of key clean energy programs. One is called the program of energy research and development. It has been in place since the mid-1970s. It was put in place after the oil embargo. It has been investing in federal laboratories and driving clean energy development, and invested in energy security in the early days. It has a core funding of around $45 million per year. It has four federal departments. On the supply side, there's work on unconventional oil and gas and frontier oil and gas; clean coal and carbon capture and storage, CCS; Generation IV nuclear; and renewables and clean bioenergy. The focus of this program is to minimize the environmental footprint of energy developments, not on finding more oil or gas.

The clean energy fund was a budget 2009 initiative, and its investments are in large-scale CCS demonstrations. There is significant leverage of investments by provinces and industry in this project. There is also a small-scale demonstration component focusing on renewable energy and integration of renewable energy into the grid. Again, there is significant leverage: for every dollar we put in, two dollars are invested by industry.

Budget 2011 had the ecoENERGY innovation initiative, which has two components to it, one of demonstrations looking at integration of renewable energy and one of R and D in clean electricity and conventional oil and gas and bioenergy on the supply side.

Where fossil fuel energy is concerned, the key objectives are cleaner fossil fuel, with few or no adverse environmental impacts in terms of greenhouse gas, air contaminants, water quality, and water quantity used in fossil fuel developments. The highlights would be the number of CCS projects that have gone ahead and have been applied to coal-fired power plants and to bitumen upgraders. There was a recent announcement by Shell about their facility in Alberta, and it reduces emissions in that particular facility by 35%.

There has been development and testing of technologies that reduce water use by increasing recycling and reuse of water and air emission by improving process efficiency and by improving tailings management through reduced tailings inventories. A lot of the work contributes to standards and regulations that mitigate environmental issues and safety, particularly offshore and in northern Canada. There are a number of key performers, including universities and provinces, and the private sector is a major performer of R and D in this area.

Under renewable energy supply, the goal is really to develop and demonstrate clean, renewable energy sources and to get to a point where they will be cost-competitive with other traditional sources of energy. In our highlights, there are 35 demonstration projects going ahead conducted by the private sector that integrate technologies into their operations for renewable power. We are demonstrating technologies in harsh climates and environments, whether it's in Canada's north or in the Bay of Fundy with marine demonstrations.

We have a number of projects looking at gasification technology using biomass to provide heat and power. There is also mapping of industrial waste sources, food waste, and yard waste that can be converted into power, and scaling up a number of technologies from buildings to communities. Key performers involve a very broad range of performers, from federal and provincial governments to power authorities and a number of technology companies, as well as a number of aboriginal groups that are looking, in off-grid communities, to integrate renewable power into the community to displace things like diesel.

The end goal is to position Canada in the global energy technology market. There are a number of areas where we have leading-edge, competitive technology, including heavy oil, shale gas, traditional hydro, bioenergy, and nuclear. There's been a lot of work done by Canada. It's a market that we see will be large in the future and where Canada is well positioned.

There are a number of emerging competitive technologies, such as carbon capture and storage, in which Canada is a world leader. We are a leader in natural gas, biofuels, and solar. There are a number of areas where Canada does not have a competitive advantage, such as gasification and geothermal. There is a large potential for geothermal in western Canada, but it has not been developed to date. We also have a considerable potential in wind energy.

In conclusion, globally we see the energy demand growing significantly, with much of that growth being in developing countries. Canada has abundant fossil fuels, which are expected to be 80% of the supply, and a clear advantage in many technologies. We have a vast and diversified energy endowment and we're a key global player in a number of different resources.

We provided to you a document that we use within NRCan. It's an energy fact book. It's available in both French and English. It gives you some basic facts about where Canada is situated in a number of resources and what this means for the Canadian economy.

With respect to R and D, Canada ranks third among OECD countries in energy R and D investments and expenditures as a percentage of GDP, and 43% of our R and D money is spent on renewable and clean energy supply.

We have leading-edge and emerging exportable technologies in a number of areas, and these are areas we're pursuing and looking at for future investments.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Dr. D'Iorio, for your presentation.

Before we go to questions and comments, I want to let committee members know that there are other experts from the department at the back. If one of the questions you ask is on a subject that can be best handled by one of them, they'll come to the table at that time.

We are dealing with innovation on the supply side of the energy landscape. Later we'll go to innovation in distribution, and after that innovation in use.

Starting off questioning on our study, we have Mr. Trost.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

I found it interesting to listen to your discussion of the government energy initiatives. How much of our energy program initiatives are tied up in environmental endeavours? I want to get a bit of a grasp on what energy initiatives the federal government is involved in.

Would you say that most of our energy efforts have to do with the environment? You mentioned fossil fuels. You mentioned improving renewable technologies, and there was some talk about waste. Am I correct in my understanding of that? If so, why are those the areas—and I'm not asking in a political sense—where federal innovation in energy has tended to specialize?

11:50 a.m.

Director General, Office of Energy Research and Development, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Marc D'Iorio

It's an area where there is a lot of investment by private industry, which looks to increasing the supply and being efficient about how resources are used. Industry will tend to concentrate on production. It's in their best interests to do so. Federal investments are often in minimizing the environmental footprint. It's part of the social licence to operate and affects our ability to export, so a lot of the focus has been on the environment or on the offshore and the Arctic. That's more on the geology side, meaning understanding the nature and scope of the resource before exploration takes place.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

That wouldn't just be with the fossil fuels. That would be a whole gamut of programs.

You were talking about some of the renewable programs. Are those being pursued because of their environmental footprint, or are they being looked at and supported because of the potential commercial value in those programs?

11:50 a.m.

Director General, Office of Energy Research and Development, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Marc D'Iorio

On the renewable side, there is an opportunity for an export market that is growing, that is nascent in some of the technology areas. It's being able to identify which ones are the right areas for Canada to invest in.

One of the contexts that we work in, whether it's fossil fuels or renewable energy, is the issue of provincial jurisdiction in all these areas and being respectful of our mandate with respect to the broader issues and the province's mandate with respect to managing the resource. It's providing a regulatory framework for the development and protection of the resource. As well, when it comes to electricity generation, it's about their responsibility with respect to providing electricity to their citizens.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

We're starting out at the beginning of this report and trying to get a grasp on what is innovative in the energy sector and how we can improve. That's the idea behind the committee report.

How do you benchmark the success of your programs? From an outsider's perspective, this could be fairly difficult to do. If you're a business, you have an economic payback, your return on investment, but as you know, this has to do with social licence. I understand, as a politician, that I will evaluate the political payback of a particular issue, but when you look at the programs the government's doing, be it for R and D or research on fossil fuels, how do you set up your benchmarks? If we come to you as a committee and ask if this is a success or not, what are you going to say? How do we look at it to benchmark it?

11:55 a.m.

Director General, Office of Energy Research and Development, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Marc D'Iorio

Every program we have has a set of benchmarks and performance indicators right from the onset. The ones that are more focused on R and D have benchmarks, including what you would see as a bibliometric type of benchmark: the number of publications, the number of codes that we've influenced, the number of regulations that have been influenced by the research that's been done, and often the number of participants in these projects.

One of the key issues in innovation is to make sure we make the best use we can of the innovation system. The innovation system has three main performers: industry, academia, and government laboratories. We try to foster these types of collaborations, so that innovation can move along the chain from a discovery point to adoption and commercialization at the end.

Depending on the program, we have different types of benchmarks. On the economic payback, it's one that's more delicate. On carbon capture and storage, for example, a company cannot make a profit off a project that's been financed partly by government. In fact, if there's revenue generated from that project, it must pay back the contributions received from government. The framework for each program, then, is slightly different, depending on the objective of the program.

We could provide a set of the type of performance indicators, should you be interested, for specific programs, whether they be on the ones that are more research-oriented, like the program of energy R and D, or the clean energy fund.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Personally, I don't know about other committee members, but I'd be interested in seeing some examples so that I get a better understanding of what it is. I've never worked in the civil service, so this would be of interest.

11:55 a.m.

Director General, Office of Energy Research and Development, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Marc D'Iorio

Perhaps I could turn to my colleague Martin Aubé on this matter.

11:55 a.m.

Martin Aubé Director General, Strategic Science-Technology Branch, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

I would just add one little thing. Probably one of the performance indicators that Marc referred to in his presentation is leverage. I think it shows how important research investment is to the private sector or to the university partner. It's clearly one of our main indicators that we try to track.

The other thing, too, that we try to look at is how the technologies are moving along the innovation chain, R and D being a very long-term process. Within the span of a program of three, four, or five years, you may not see that final impact, but you will see the technology progressing from maybe an early stage of development to an applied stage and then to a demonstration stage.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

In the 34 seconds we have left here in my time, where would be some areas that we as the committee should look at? Again, you have the privilege of being the first witnesses for this study. Particularly on innovation, we're starting on the supply side. Do you have any suggestions on areas of particular interest that we should look at?

11:55 a.m.

Director General, Strategic Science-Technology Branch, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Martin Aubé

Is it specific areas?

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Take it away; you're the experts here.

11:55 a.m.

Director General, Strategic Science-Technology Branch, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Martin Aubé

Well, I think there are a series of different types of innovations that you'll want to look at. We're only looking at supply right now. I think I would ask the question after you've looked at the three segments, because they're all very interrelated. You'll notice that issues that are occurring in supply are also issues with distribution.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Once we're done looking at it in segments, are you saying maybe we should come back and find a way to integrate and tie them together?

11:55 a.m.

Director General, Strategic Science-Technology Branch, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Martin Aubé

I think that would be a good thing, because the systems are very integrated. You'll see renewable issues also come out in end use, for example, when you look at integrated communities or you look at net-zero housing, so I would recommend more of a holistic look when you take a look at the three elements.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Trost.

We go now to the official opposition and to Mr. Julian for up to seven minutes. Go ahead, please.

Noon

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

I wanted to start by looking at the rankings. They were very helpful in your presentation. I'd like to know where Canada ranks worldwide in terms of solar power production, tidal power production, geothermal production, and wind energy production.

Noon

Director General, Office of Energy Research and Development, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Marc D'Iorio

We could look up that information; we don't have it with us.

I could answer the one on geothermal: Canada's not producing electricity from geothermal at this point.

Noon

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Okay. That would be very helpful, because I think there has been a lot of criticism in those four areas. Canada is among the worst among industrialized countries, so I think it would be very helpful for the committee to know exactly how far down we rank in those areas, particularly in light of the fact that renewable energy is such a huge market; it's a trillion dollars in Canada. GDP investment is far below other industrialized countries, so I think that would be very helpful for our study.

The second point I wanted to touch on was the overall funding. Again, the table is very helpful for the overall funding in terms of R and D spending, but as you noted, only about 23% of that total comes from the federal government.

Do you know where Canada is on this list in terms of our ranking in federal government expenditures on energy R and D? Just ballparking it with a lot of these other industrialized countries where we know the national governments are actively involved in funding, Canada, presumably with that 23%, would be one of the worst of the industrialized countries. Do you have figures comparing the federal government expenditures to other industrialized countries?

Noon

Director General, Office of Energy Research and Development, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Marc D'Iorio

The IEA does produce gross expenditures by governments, and we can secure those and provide them to the clerk.

Noon

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

I'm just looking at the federal government, though.

Noon

Director General, Office of Energy Research and Development, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Marc D'Iorio

Yes, I understand.