Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 25th, 2017

[François Vitez]

The only thing is that, when we talk about value of storage, we always talk about cost. When we talk about value, it adds value much more than just the energy. That's where oftentimes we miss out here. All these costs associated with flexibility and all the other ancillary services, we as a society end up paying for them but they are hidden in that rate base.

As Mr. Marcoux said, if we could start identifying layers of performance associated with those services, that would allow the utility to be incentivized automatically. If you want to apply that to the private sector, develop a layer of benefits associated with those services.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Yes, so—

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you.

We're over time already. I'm sorry. There's only five minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I was just getting on a roll.

I was going to quote the CBC, Marc.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Do I hear a motion to extend the time? Okay, no.

Mr. Arseneault, I can give you about three minutes.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Whatever time I have left I'll be giving to my colleague Mr. Serré.

Welcome gentlemen. As neither a scientist nor an engineer, I would ask that you take pity on me when you answer. Ha, ha!

The current challenge seems to be the storage of clean energy, electricity, so that we can use it when we need it. I'm going to stray from the subject slightly for the sake of an analogy.

A while ago, I was on a plane reading an article about the technology used in electric cars. In response to environmentalists, the authors were arguing that the environmental damage caused by the battery of a single electric vehicle was equivalent to that caused by the manufacturing of three Hummers. I never forgot that figure. Perhaps I was naive, but I'm telling you what I read; I'm not being critical.

This storage solution really comes down to building a giant battery. Have you done a cost estimate or assessed the environmental impact? Of course, we want to use and store clean energy, but there are costs to building that kind of mega-battery. Have they been measured? Is it worth it? It's an innocent question.

[Benoit Marcoux]

I saw that study about two years ago, and I have to tell you that it was challenged pretty quickly. Clearly, any industrial or commercial endeavour has an environmental cost. One of the core reasons, however, that we promote the electrification of transportation and electric vehicles is the reduction in carbon emissions, which is, after all, a fundamental consideration.

That said, our motivation may have more to do with the economic benefits. Economically speaking, we are nearing a point where electric vehicles, grid-based energy storage, and renewable energies are competitively priced.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

My question was more about the building of that storage system. My analogy concerned electric car batteries.

[Benoit Marcoux]

We could find some references, but if we had to compare the system with other economic activities that would achieve the same result, I wouldn't be too worried.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Very well.

[François Vitez]

It's important to keep in mind that energy storage systems aren't just about batteries. A lot is recycled during the production process. It's also necessary to look at the other types of technology, which have very different repercussions. Although there is always an impact, it can vary greatly.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

You have 30 seconds.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You said that the provinces had to think 40 to 50 years into the future. Do the investments Ontario has made over the past decade put it in a better position going forward than the rest of the provinces?

[Benoit Marcoux]

That would require examining each case. Overall, though, Canada's electric grid is in good shape. The issue is how well-designed is it for the future. Yes, Ontario has made significant investments, but so has Quebec. New Brunswick has done a lot as well. Everywhere has. Generally, Canada's electric utilities have kept their grids in good condition, even though those grids are hard to maintain in some cases. Saskatchewan is one such place: it has more polls than customers. That's true.

Situations like that are challenging, but the electric utilities have worked to keep their infrastructure healthy.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you.

That's all the time we have this afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you both very much for taking the time to be here with us and for contributing to this study.

We'll suspend now for two minutes. Then we will go into committee business briefly.

[Proceedings continue in camera]