Evidence of meeting #21 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
If I may, just because you have mentioned Ms. Da Silva's group or at least the U.S. version, do you have any of that data about a 90% transition of the energy workforce.
Do you know the study she's referring to?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Iron and Earth
I'm a bit confused, because Iron and Earth is only in Canada.
4:15 p.m.
Chief Innovation Officer, Clean Energy Canada
I'm able to provide the study for you. It's an American group that's similar to Iron and Earth.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Great. I would appreciate that study if you could get that to us.
I'll go to Electricity Canada.
You mentioned a lot about the number of people employed in electricity and the changing way we develop our electricity. I was wondering what the job opportunities in electricity are going forward. What are the types of jobs you see being developed in electricity for which we will need more people?
4:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Electricity Canada
Thank you for the question. Maybe I'll start, and Michelle can chime in as well because Michelle has a lot of the very specific information in this space.
As we look to the objective of being net zero by 2050, we do know we're going to have to take an “all of the above” approach to the electricity system overall. To double or triple the amount of clean electricity we produce means that every non-emitting source of generation is going to have to be pursued. We're going to have to be pursuing a significant expansion of our transmission, distribution and distributed energy resources.
With the expansion of really all of the areas of clean electricity, the opportunities are immense. Michelle could talk about some of the specifics on what those opportunities are going to look like from the workforce standpoint.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
That's what I'm curious about. What are the jobs that we're looking at?
4:15 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Electricity Human Resources Canada
Similar to Merran's comments, when you look at the growth in the number of EVs on our roads, that's going to necessitate more EV installers, for example. It's also going to necessitate people working in sales and marketing to communicate the value of electrical vehicles to the consumer, to ensure that the consumer is ready to adapt. That's something that's important in that arena.
Again, when you move to buildings and look at energy efficiency refits, etc., there are going to be new jobs created all along the supply chain. If you look backward at how our generation has evolved to include wind and solar, our workforce now includes wind and solar technicians in a way that it didn't a decade ago.
Research and development jobs are going to be important, particularly when you look at the energy storage that's going to be required to handle the Canadian climate. Look at SMRs and what skills and competencies are going to be required to manage the large-scale adoption. We are now going to see our first SMR deployments in 2027 and 2028 in Ontario and Saskatchewan.
All of these jobs are going to require pretty unique skills and competencies to ensure that we have the workforce we need. To give an example, we developed about a month ago—
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
I'll ask you to wrap it up quickly. End with the example and then we'll move on to our next one. Thank you.
4:15 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Electricity Human Resources Canada
We developed a brand new occupational standard for the role of electric vehicle installer, because it did not exist in the industry. We're now hearing from our employers that want us to develop job descriptions and occupational standards for new jobs that do not yet currently exist. It's very fast moving.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Joseph, I am happy to see you today. I hope you will be able to answer a question I have asked several times and have unfortunately not received an answer to.
I will ask you to do something a politician can never do by answering with a yes or a no.
Is net-zero oil profitable, yes or no?
4:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations and Indigenous Affairs, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
When there is a demand, yes.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
I will explain to you what I mean by profitable. To me, a consumer good that does not need the government's support is profitable.
Given that perspective, is net-zero oil without government support profitable?
4:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations and Indigenous Affairs, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
The global demand for oil is currently growing, but there is also an interest in reducing the demand and in net-zero emissions. Our members are working toward that. They would not be investing in something that would lose them money.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
If I understand correctly, net-zero oil would not exist without government support. I am looking for an answer to that question.
4:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations and Indigenous Affairs, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
To meet reduction targets right now, support would be needed because we are going beyond what is profitable and are coming up against international competition.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
I'm sorry for interrupting you.
I know that the price of oil fell owing to the pandemic. Not too long ago, I looked into the situation. On March 22, 2021, oil was at $64 a barrel; on March 22, 2022, it was at $128 a barrel. That recovery is starting to look pretty significant.
I did the same exercise for refining margins. The refining margin was $1.15 in March 2021, compared with $4.40 in March 2022. I think oil companies are doing well these days.
4:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations and Indigenous Affairs, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
Yes.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
You agree with that. I will go even further.
I am not trying to insult Jason Kenney, so I will not go there, but I don't think he is a Greenpeace supporter.
Three days ago, Mr. Kenney said that oil companies may be taking things a bit too far by asking for a tax credit of 75% of the initial costs of carbon capture projects.
Do you think that is excessive?
4:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations and Indigenous Affairs, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
If we compare our producers with producers from other countries, such as Norway or the United States, which are launching major carbon capture projects to produce net-zero oil, the percentages are comparable. Norway provides a subsidy equal to 75% of costs instead of giving a tax credit.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Ms. Joseph, let's consider the majority of people. Back home, in Saguenay‑Lac‑Saint‑Jean, I am telling my constituents that oil companies don't want to settle for a 50% tax credit and that they want a 75% tax credit.
When I look at those companies' profits, I note, for example, that MEG Energy has seen its profits increase by 68% over the past year. Imperial Oil will make additional profits of $1.2 billion in the upcoming year. The same goes for Canadian Natural Resources. Its profits have nearly doubled, and it will rake in $3.1 billion. Despite that, the federal government is being asked to foot the bill for carbon capture strategies.
The expression “just transition” contains the word “just”. I think this situation is deeply unjust for other sectors.
Do you agree with me?
4:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations and Indigenous Affairs, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
As long as there is a demand for energy, oil or natural gas on the planet, Canada will want to provide some. We want to do it in a way that would increasingly reduce greenhouse gas emissions so as to achieve net-zero emissions to—
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Ms. Joseph, I understand the principle of demand, as long as there is a demand. However, there is a principle in economy, which implies that the product being sold will be profitable.
Net-zero oil's profitability is non-existent. The only way net-zero oil is profitable is with the government supporting it with a fervour I have never seen in other economic sectors. The government is supporting this somewhat crazy idea of creating net-zero oil. It seems to me there is a fundamental principle, which is polluter pays. But what we are currently seeing in Canada is rather a polluter paid principle.
4:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations and Indigenous Affairs, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
Mr. Simard, all sectors in Canada will need help to reach a high level of reduction, and ambitions—
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
You have the lion's share.
The only subsidies we are certain of are the ones from Export Development Canada, or EDC. According to Oil Change International, the ratio is 1 to 14 in that respect. In other words, you receive $14 billion while all other sectors producing clean energy receive only $1 billion.
Do you think that is fair?