Natural Resources Committee on May 30th, 2022

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair—and Charlie, for the recognition.

I want to thank all of the witnesses today. Thank you for your knowledge and your testimony.

President Lehr, I'd like to focus on you, if you don't mind. I have a few questions related to northern Alberta. Specifically, I understand that the Metis Settlements General Council actually is the largest independent-of-the-government landholder in the province of Alberta, making you one of the largest stakeholders in Alberta in the environment and also in the development of natural resources and otherwise. I have a few questions pertaining to your vision for these communities.

Can you maybe elaborate more on what you mentioned in your opening testimony related to the experience to date of the oil and gas industry in these communities, which are often situated right near oil and gas sectors today? Could you maybe elaborate a bit more on how the oil and gas companies have treated the indigenous communities that you represent? What kinds of liabilities are still outstanding in terms of the environmental deficit?

[Herb Lehr]

Thank you for the question.

We do own one and a quarter million acres of land. We have more wells than first nations people have on their lands, yet I look at what has transpired with our people.

I just want to say, for the record, that 30 years ago, I made a deal with Texaco. It was bought out by CNRL. The deal was to develop the resources in exchange for developing the people. What we received was a whole bunch of our people going bankrupt. They were kept inside the little sandbox of our area and told to be competitive with other businesses around them that enjoyed full-time employment. They never lived up the master development agreements that we had with them.

We looked at Alberta's policies where it says that if you come here, you're supposed to leave it in the condition you found it. I challenge anyone to go on Google Earth and look at Alberta. Look at sites that are 60 years old and older than that. What are they? You'll find that none of them are the same as the area around them. They put it down to pastured grasses. They run cattle on it. Sometimes they'll put the odd tree. You lose all of the traditional medicine and the berries. Everything we had there before is gone. It changes the whole landscape.

We talk about the impact. In our communities, we see different kinds of animals that don't belong here, whether it's raccoons, antelopes or the grizzly. We know that climate change is real. We see the change in the animals. We see the ducks and the geese that we can't eat anymore. We wonder if next it's going to be our moose and deer that we can't eat.

We look at all of these things and we say that we were part of that problem. We were never given the opportunity, like the first nations talk about, to maximize the opportunity under oil and gas. We've always been second fiddle to everything. When something is closing, they want to bring it and say that now its an opportunity for us.

We need to get in at the ground floor—right now—of what the new move is for moving forward with Canada and the world economy. That's why, for us, we want to say goodbye to oil and gas. It's still going to happen, but we don't want to destroy our land.

As I said earlier, Blake, we are the stewards of the land in our settlements and communities. You'll see there are very few fields. We've protected the trees, the environment and our way of life. I take it as an affront when we're charged carbon taxes and all of this stuff when we're the people protecting it, along with my first nations brothers and sisters. I don't believe that it's appropriate to charge us for that.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, President Lehr.

One really interesting part of your testimony was when you mentioned this idea of the incentivization of resource development. In many ways, we can also look at our responsibility, globally, to our environment and to our land. We can look to the leadership of indigenous leaders, like yourself, who recognize the reality that our planet has just a few decades before we see catastrophic impact to the life of our lands. This is more relevant now than ever. You know this first-hand. You visit all of the lands. I visited eight of the communities in northern Alberta and I've seen it as well. This is truly detrimental.

What I really appreciate about your testimony is that you spoke about the opportunities that are present to indigenous people looking forward. Could you elaborate on ways we could incentivize participation of organizations and communities like the Métis settlements to better participate in renewable projects that will both see prosperity in the community and help in terms of our emerging global climate change crisis?

[Herb Lehr]

For sure.

The settlements moved into what they call “budget-based taxation”, so that we can actually tax with industrial tax and set our mill rate based under the budget that's required by the oil and gas companies. We make sure we're getting some money out of them because they don't contribute properly.

I look at things that I've talked about, like the trees we've kept and protected for generations. I believe that indigenous communities should be compensated for the amount of treed area that they retain, rather than try to get paid to do oil and gas.

As I heard one of my first nations brothers say earlier, we do all of this stuff because of poverty. We are exploiting our own resources because we are forced to. We need to get compensation to us in a different way, so that we can make a better value judgment as to whether or not we still want to participate in oil and gas or if we want to keep our indigenous way and not exploit that because we don't have to.

We've done it because we've had to and that's Canada's shame.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

All right.

We're out of time on this one. We're going now to the slightly shorter round of five minutes, starting with Mr. McLean.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses here today.

I'm going to start my questioning with the Indian Resource Council, if I could, please. It would be great to hear some responses as well.

Your communities' representation as workers in the resource industry is higher than other communities' participation in the resource industry. These jobs of course pay more than any other jobs in Canada, but particularly in your communities. You're participating: your labour and your indigenous regional benefits.

Now, after years of trying, you're finally getting equity and the recognition of section 35 rights. You've come a long way. This is very important, and we're pleased to see that progress. I particularly am pleased to see that progress, yet you've been catching up. Think about the leadership you brought to this.

But one common note that I've heard here from a few of the witnesses, of course, is that this just transition misstatement—in my opinion—is being put forth without the consultation of the indigenous communities. It is in fact, as Mr. Wapass says, an “unjust transition”.

Can you tell me, Steven Saddleback, how you see this operating better as far as the outcomes go for your community over the next decade?

[Steve Saddleback, Director, National Energy Business Centre of Excellence, Indian Resource Council Inc.]

Thank you for that question, MP McLean.

Thank you for all the comments and for allowing us to be part of the round table today.

In terms of the discussion at hand, this committee has labelled it a “just transition”. Since the onset of this, I am reminded of the just society that was put forward and ultimately resulted in the White Paper, and what ultimately happened with that was as a result of the Red Paper.

If we look back at the history, that came about because of a lack of consultation with first nation communities. We were notified about this activity without having that involvement of first nations, and then being down in first nation communities and having that consultation with those chiefs and councils, as our board member, former Chief Wapass, had indicated. I just want to have that as a point of order for folks to be mindful of this: that consultation does need to happen.

In terms of—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I'm sorry, Mr. Saddleback. I have to move quickly here because I have only a short amount of time. I appreciate the comments on the different papers.

Just quickly, if I can, I'll move now to Mr. Swampy, please.

Mr. Swampy, we talked about jurisdiction here. Think about how much you've participated with the Alberta government, with the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation and also in the education that you've brought up here and the programs that this has helped.

Can you comment, please, on the jurisdictional overlap that the government at the federal level is trying to impose here to more or less put another ratchet, another regulatory hurdle, in your society's social advancement?

[Dale Swampy]

That's right. In my mind, under this legislation, it's a vehicle for the government to be able to stop projects that first nations are supporting. It's contradicting the fact that once you give power to first nations to deny a project, you also give power to first nations to build a project. We think we should be given the same rights that are afforded to first nations across the country and across North America, and that is to develop our own traditional territory.

If you look at Alaska and the 13 bills of Congress and the tens of millions of acres that were given to first nations out there, they never sold one acre of those lands to a foreign country or a private landholder. They kept that land, they developed it and they developed it properly. It doesn't mean that model can't work for us in Canada. That's what we're all about. Reconciliation is about land. Give us back the land you assigned to us at treaty and then we'll take advantage of the—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Swampy.

Can Mr. Saddleback answer that same question as well, please?

[Steve Saddleback]

When you talk about involvement with first nations communities, the energy sector has been a big part of our first nations, and we can have that balance between economic development and the environment.

There was some mention of job creation. In the last 18 months, the Indian Resource Council has created over 400 jobs, which include not only reclamation—well activity and cleaning up over 1,800 wells in the province of Alberta—but careers. It has created careers in looking at alternative energy.

When we talk about poverty, we talk about this just transition, and we need to ensure this for those first nations that are going to be the most greatly impacted by any fluctuation in energy prices. When we do these increases and the investment in alternative energies and those activities that are happening, where are we going to get these dollars for a family that's living on social assistance and that doesn't have activity in their nation? We're not sitting there in a major centre, and we need to be mindful of that when we're talking about these just transitions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay, great. Thank you.

We're going to go now to Ms. Lapointe, who will have five minutes.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Chair Aldag.

My questions are for Chief Gale.

Your organization recently released a report entitled “Indigenous Leadership and Opportunities in the Net Zero Transition”. The report states that “All battery metal/mineral extraction that occurs, or that will occur, in Canada is on lands and waters to which Indigenous nations and peoples have inherent legal rights.” Furthermore, the report indicates that “Canada has much to do to realize the opportunity that Indigenous leadership provides...in terms of net zero economic and environmental opportunities.”

Can you expand on this statement?

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

Thank you.

I think one of the other important pieces in this is putting the "I" in “ESG”, so that if people are to get access to our natural resources, they're going to have to consult and work with us. As I said, our members across Canada, who are from coast to coast, from Miawpukek First Nation to the province of British Columbia, are going to need to be meaningfully consulted, and the truest form of consent to us is equity. We want to be part of our natural resources.

When the Indian agent came, you guys pushed us on the reserve and we watched your communities grow, but we haven't had the opportunity to grow alongside with Canadian society.

That document is very well put together by my team, and I really encourage everybody to read that document, as well as “Indigenous Sustainable Investment: Discussing Opportunities in ESG”.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

A fair transition for current energy sector workers is important, but more importantly, I believe, is inclusion for those who are traditionally left out of benefits of the energy sector.

What opportunities do you believe are available for first nation communities when looking at the entire ecosystem or supply chain, from mining to the production of EV batteries?

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

Through equity ownership, I see our people not only having labour jobs where they're laid off in the springtime, I see our people being CEOs and on boards of directors, and managers and being able to make decisions in the corporate world. Also, on the ground, I see our people being guardians, land users, hunters, fishers and trappers. We bring that information back to our lands office.

When we get involved in major projects, there's a huge separation between our economic arm and our governance arm, but we still have to do that due diligence in striking the balance between economic prosperity and environmental stewardship. That's why I feel it's very important that indigenous people are involved in the extraction of materials that are happening in their territories, whether that's one nation that wants to be involved or bringing in a collaboration of nations to work together.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

The report lays out a list of Canada's “barriers to gaining a strong foothold in the battery mineral supply chain”.

I would like to hear more details on two of the barriers that are listed in the report.

One deals with “Indigenous involvement”, where you talk about “The centralization of Indigenous leadership in the battery supply chain planning and actualization” and how that “needs to happen while projects are in their initial planning phases, not after the fact or later in [the] project”.

The second one is on remoteness, namely the “The relative remoteness of resources in Canada leads to higher cost for exploration.”

What I'd like to know is how Canada can lead by helping in these two areas.

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

We don't have the capacity to make business decisions at the speed of business. That's why the support of the First Nations Major Projects Coalition is so important to indigenous communities, because we provide that capacity to make those informed decisions for free.

What Canada and industry have to do is to come see us on day one. Don't come to us with your preplanned construction ideas. Come to us on day one. We'll tell you where projects can be built, and where they can't be built. Many of our communities are remote, but that doesn't mean we don't have the ability, or don't want to be involved in a project, especially if it's happening in our territory 400 kilometres away from our village.

Ultimately, I feel that if you come to us on day one, we know where things can and can't go on the land. Many of our nations have land use plans, and they are very detailed. By coming to us on day one, we can get projects built faster. We can overcome regulatory approval processes. They can built on time if we're involved meaningfully.

The other thing I would like to add is that first nations just want an opportunity. We've been left behind since you guys came to Canada, right? Never underestimate the ability of our people. We're hard workers. We want to be a part of our economies just as bad as you guys, because we want to put bread and butter on the table. We want to look after our families. We're like all Canadian citizens in this country who want to look after their families.

When I feel that first nations are involved meaningfully, and when we are involved in a project, nobody gets left behind; but when governments and corporations come in and try to do it for us, we always get left behind.

That's just my closing comment. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We're going to go now to Monsieur Simard.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

If I'm not mistaken, in his presentation, Mr. Lehr talked about land reclamation. I remember that the federal government gave $1.5 million to clean up orphan oil wells. I think it was in 2019 or 2020.

I'd like to ask Mr. Lehr if any of that $1.5 million has been spent on cleaning up wells on first nations lands.

I would also like to hear Mr. Swampy and Chief Gale's comments on this.

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

I can start on this one if you like.

Yes, we did receive some monies to clean up the oil patch in our backyard. That's what I find so challenging. There's no responsibility from the oil and gas companies to do the right thing. They made billions of dollars from the extraction of resources on our territory. Unfortunately, we had a bit of a bust with the markets, and the processing of this sulphur gas. They pretty much up and left. We're now left with infrastructure, roadways, seismic lines, you name it. There's a pile of junk in our backyard that we're left to look after at the end of the day.

Before this had happened, 10 years ago, the provincial government sold our lands without our knowledge for $5 billion to the oil and gas companies. We need to find a better way to do these things. It has taken away from my treaty rights to hunt, fish, and trap. My territory is now totally opened up to anybody to come in to take substance away from my people. It's been very challenging. We need to look at a better process, and have corporations take more responsibility when they come into our territories.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Lehr, would you like to add anything?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I would say be brief. We are almost out of time. If you want to weigh in, please do.

[Herb Lehr]

Thank you.

One hundred million dollars came to Alberta. Eighty-five million dollars went to first nations and $15 million went to the Metis Settlements. It didn't even touch those we need to reclaim. It had a big provincial twist to it. The ones that we were involved with as settlements got left by the wayside. It wasn't enough money to really move forward on the reclamation that's required when it comes to the settlements.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Angus for two and a half minutes for this one.