Evidence of meeting #43 for Natural Resources in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was power.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
If ever Mr. Kabbara wants to answer the question in writing, he is welcome to. Thank you to him.
The major challenge is a bit like what Normand Mousseau of the Institut de l'énergie Trottier told us at the beginning of the study. According to him, we need to create a value chain in Quebec in the electrification sector. Part of our report will probably focus on that. I hope so.
What actions can the Canadian government take in the short or medium term to create this electrification value chain?
Former Chair, Canada Electricity Advisory Council, As an Individual
First of all, I would say that Quebec is probably one of the most advanced provinces in terms of the value chain, because Quebec has developed its electricity grid more than other provinces, relatively speaking.
That said, there is still a lot of work to be done. Back home, my firm works on value chain issues. We are in the process of identifying the components in which Canada could play a part. It's not the whole chain. We're not going to start building everything.
However, we have some advantages that we can better harness. I'm thinking, for example, of transformers. This is not something that is that politically sexy. However, transformers are an excellent example, because we produce some in Canada, but relatively few compared to our needs. We import a lot. There is a bottleneck in this area, in Canada and around the world. That slows down the construction we need to do. That's just one example, but we have to be strategic about it.
If we map the electricity industry, we see there are over a thousand parts in the chain. We have to choose very deliberately and sensibly which parts Canada has an advantage in, then press the gas pedal. For that, there is a lot of leverage at the federal level. There is some at the provincial level as well, but it's mainly at the federal level. One of the big challenges is that our neighbours to the south have introduced a tax credit for the production of renewable electricity. As I understand it, our tax system makes a similar credit quite hard to implement. Therefore, we have to find somewhat creative solutions to compete with them.
Liberal
Conservative
Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON
Mr. Chair, I will share my time with Mr. Kibble.
I will be asking the first question of Monsieur Dunsky.
We've talked about nuclear, about Ontario and about people who choose to approach this in their own way. You said something interesting. You said that we could try to delay the inevitable.
Could you explain that a little more?
Former Chair, Canada Electricity Advisory Council, As an Individual
The inevitable is electrification. The inevitable is an electric motor. Take the example of an electric vehicle that takes us from point A to point B. It will consume three times less energy than a gas-powered vehicle, which means that the performance has reached the next level.
In terms of costs, I would add that, in a few years, we will reach parity in terms of the purchase costs of electric vehicles. The subsequent operating costs will be much lower. That's where we're headed, and very quickly.
If we try to delay the advent of electric vehicles, for example, we are shooting ourselves in the foot. We are shooting ourselves in the foot when it comes to affordability for consumers and car owners. That's just one example.
Heat pumps are another example. Heating with a heat pump uses three times less energy than heating with a gas furnace. That doesn't mean we have to throw out all the gas furnaces right away. I would never say that. A lot of my clients are gas companies. However, when the technology reaches a point where it performs far better than the previous technology, we have to accept that technology. We have to pave the way for it and find a way to welcome it that will be beneficial for us.
Conservative
Gaétan Malette Conservative Kapuskasing—Timmins—Mushkegowuk, ON
I have 30 seconds left.
Could you briefly tell us whether electrification can be developed at a rapid enough pace?
I'm talking about power lines in particular.
Former Chair, Canada Electricity Advisory Council, As an Individual
That's the challenge. My biggest concern is that we're not building fast enough to meet our needs, to have enough electricity to allow, for example, certain parts of the industry to expand or new businesses to start up. We're in a race. We can't really slow down demand, and we need to speed up supply.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like [Technical difficulty—Editor] questions about the risk of cyber-sabotage in industrial facilities, I think it's incredibly important, despite the snickering we heard from the members opposite. Drawing on my background, as someone who ran the joint operations centre on the Pacific coast, doing security and surveillance there, I can assure this committee that those are real risks that demand to be taken seriously.
My first question is for Ms. Harland. In 2017, this committee recommended that the government implement interprovincial or east-west coast electrical grid connections and corridors. Has this happened? Do you think this is still a valid recommendation? Do you see it as something that contributes to the national security and self-reliance of Canada?
Canadian Climate Institute
To start, has this happened? I think there is more opportunity now than there was in 2017 for that east-west development of interties. What we've seen between 2017 and now is that some of the issues about incentives—
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
I'm going to jump in, just to clarify. You said there's more opportunity, but regardless of the opportunity, has it actually happened, other than a few minor projects? Is this something that's going forward, and does it support national security and self-reliance, which are so important? I think all members of this committee would agree to that.
Has it happened, and does it contribute? Thank you.
Canadian Climate Institute
So far, major developments haven't happened, and I think that's in part because some of the incentives that balance those winners and losers—those mixed incentives across borders—need to be fixed, and that involves coordination and co-operation.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Quickly, in the few seconds I have, could you please address the importance of these types of connections with regard to national security and Canada's self-reliance? Thank you.
Canadian Climate Institute
With regard to self-reliance, they're incredibly valuable. For a long time, we have had most connections going north-south with the U.S. By increasing our connections going east-west, we give our own grids more resilience and more flexibility and operate more interconnection between them, and that strengthens our reliability and our flexibility to operate them within a Canadian context.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid
Thank you both. That is your time.
Mr. St-Pierre, you have five minutes.
Liberal
Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Thank you.
I'll ask two quick questions of Mr. Dunsky, and then I'll pass my time to MP Danko.
Mr. Dunsky, in 2024, you were chairing the Canada electricity advisory council and advising Minister Wilkinson at the time.
First, can you submit the advisory council's final report to this committee? Second, with regard to our government's commitment to doubling the electricity grid by 2050, what would you say are our government's biggest opportunities with regard to doubling the grid, and what are the biggest challenges with regard to doubling the grid?
Former Chair, Canada Electricity Advisory Council, As an Individual
Thank you.
To your first question, I'm glad to send that report over in PDF. I have it here. If I were there, I'd be glad to give it to you in person.
In terms of the second question, did I understand correctly that you were asking about the biggest opportunity and biggest challenge?
Former Chair, Canada Electricity Advisory Council, As an Individual
With regard to the biggest opportunity we have to grow the grid, I can't give you the single one. That's my challenge. I'm going to give you three really quickly.
One is interprovincial transmission. That doesn't create more power, but it gets us access to the cheapest power in the best place. It gets it to consumer centres that need it.
Number two is building out, especially building out renewable power, in the short time frame that we have. The fastest and cheapest power out there right now is the clean stuff, the wind, solar and batteries in particular.
The third and final one is getting at waste, because we don't have electricity to spare. We are short of it as a nation now, and we continue to waste. Getting at that waste and saving more energy through improved energy efficiency and improved productivity is rarely understood for the kind of hard benefit that it is, but it's extremely important.
Liberal
Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
To pick up on that, often what gets most attention is adding capacity to the grid through renewables, solar, wind, hydro, nuclear, etc. What gets less attention is the energy that we don't use or energy efficiency as a first fuel.
In about 30 seconds, before I pass my time to my colleague, can you talk about why our government should be prioritizing energy efficiency as part of our electricity strategy?
Former Chair, Canada Electricity Advisory Council, As an Individual
It is the cheapest power available. It's reasonably easy to free up wasted power. Freeing up wasted power is the same thing as producing more power, but it can be done immediately.
I'll give you one example. One of my clients, Hydro-Québec, has a plan to free up 3,500 megawatts of power just from energy efficiency. That's more than the biggest dam or the biggest power project that we're talking about anywhere in the country.
Liberal
Liberal
John-Paul Danko Liberal Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON
Thank you.
I really appreciate this discussion. I think we've heard from a number of witnesses that the entire world is going to an electric future, so it's good to reinforce that here today.
Ms. Harland, we're talking about this transition. There are opportunities with vehicles, with heating, with industry and AI. You mentioned in your opening statement the risks if we are not a leader, if we're not at the forefront, if we don't take the initiative now.
As a question similar to my colleague's, what are the risks if we don't build out our electric system in the way that you're advocating, and what are the real, solid, tangible opportunities that you see?