Official Languages Committee on March 13th, 2008

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

In the case of CFB Borden, a strategic plan was developed but there were no resources to implement it. Is that correct?

[Mary McFadyen]

I know that the Department of National Defence has a long-term action plan, but we have found things that need to be fixed in the short term. Our role is to try to resolve these problems now.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

If I remember correctly the testimony given by your predecessor and General Semianiw, the Chief of Defence Staff acknowledged that there was a problem at Borden. They came up with a plan to address the situation, but they did not provide the necessary resources to implement the plan.

Am I correct in my interpretation of what happened?

[Mary McFadyen]

I do not know if it was necessarily a problem of resources, but I think that the issues were not resolved on the ground at Borden. After the first visit to Borden, the chain of command told us that everything was fine.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

According to the notes I have here that are dated August 2, 2007, Major-General Gosselin said the following to the senior staff at CFB Borden:

I am working with the Chief of Military Personnel to find resources to implement this plan.

That tells me that staff had come up with a plan, but that they had forgotten to provide the necessary resources to implement it.

Are you concerned that the same thing might happen at Gagetown and Saint-Jean? Did the Chief of Defence Staff indicate in his letter that he intended to free up the necessary resources to correct the situations that you had identified?

[Mary McFadyen]

It is not necessarily a problem of resources. For example, an official languages coordinator would need to assign a place to new soldiers. Resources are not a very important factor.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

You were supposed to receive a report from the Chief of Military Personnel in December about the situation at CFB Borden. Did you receive that report? Can you share it with us?

[Mary McFadyen]

I believe so, but not today. We will send it to you.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Can you give us a general idea of what it says?

[Mary McFadyen]

It is a response from the Chief of Military Personnel. His letter addresses all the questions raised by Mr. Côté. We are now in the process of checking whether the measures have actually been implemented on the ground at Borden.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

When did you receive the report?

[Mary McFadyen]

In December.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

So you have been checking since December whether steps have been taken? Have people from the ombudsman's office gone back to Borden?

[Mary McFadyen]

Yes, we sent a team of investigators in January.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

What was the result?

[Mary McFadyen]

We are in the process of analyzing the questionnaires and interviews done at Borden.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

You went there in late January, which is already over a month ago now. Do you have a first impression? Has there been progress? Are things stalled? Are they getting worse?

[Mary McFadyen]

I think it can be said that there has been progress. As I said in my remarks, I believe that we should be able to give you more information within the next two weeks. Our investigation will be complete by then.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Bélanger and Ms. McFadyen.

We will now go to Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

To begin with, when we met with the officers on December 6, we were told about the political issue connected with obtaining the resources needed to start to deal with the problems at CFB Borden.

So I am surprised to hear you say today that, according to your report, all the difficulties at Borden are resolved. I am very eager to see that report, since these were serious problems.

Let us talk about the instruction that our soldiers received on how to carry out their various tasks. I contacted the Library of Parliament in order to obtain what was, in my humble opinion, basic information. In particular, I asked for the list of courses offered at CFB Borden, the courses offered only in French or only in English, bilingual courses, how often they were offered, how many francophone, anglophone and bilingual CF members there are there, and if a minimum number of students are required in order for a course to be given. What is the situation for each course?

I forgot to ask you whether the books used on the base for courses in French are in French, or whether the young participants have to translate continually. The Library of Parliament told me to contact the Department of National Defence, which replied that it would take a long time to get that information.

Ms. McFadyen, I would like you to undertake an investigation of those issues at CFB Borden as well. I come from a teaching background, and if the school board wanted to know what was going on in my school—what books, programs or material was being taught and what tools were being used—and I answered that it would take a very long time to get that information, I do not think that I would have kept my job for very long.

I think that the situation at Borden goes beyond what is obvious, and it also involves administrative issues; I would point the finger at National Defence.

I sent a letter and I phoned the Office of the Minister of National Defence, to which I was told to address my questions, and that is the kind of answer I was given. If that is the answer that a member of Parliament gets, imagine what happens with a soldier who does not know his rights. Things have gotten to the point in our country that you need to know that you have the right to speak in your own language and obtain services in that language. That is hurtful and it is an extremely flawed system.

Would you be prepared to do an in-depth investigation? You have received a copy of what I have just described. The necessary research needs to be done. This is where the rubber hits the road. Could I please do my course in French? If I speak French, am I given second-class treatment?

Do you intend to get to the bottom of this?

[Mary McFadyen]

That was one of the problems we identified at Borden. It is difficult for soldiers to receive instruction in the official language of their choice, and the translation is inadequate. It is one of the things that we looked at when we went back to Borden a second time. The Commissioner of Official Languages also undertook an investigation to make sure that military personnel could receive instruction in both official languages. We are working in cooperation with—

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I would like to know whether you received the same answer as I did, Ms. McFadyen. I was told to submit an access to information request to find out what is being taught at CFB Borden. That comes from the Office of the National Defence Minister, Mr. MacKay, in fact. I was told to go through access to information, which would be faster. I hope that you will track down this extremely important information, since access to instruction in the participant's own language, with the necessary teaching materials, is a key factor, and it is a daily problem for the soldiers there.

I want to come back to what Mr. Bélanger said a little earlier. It says here that the necessary resources must be found. I assume that we are talking about the money required for proper materials. Have we come to the point where soldiers have to sell chocolate bars or hold bingos in the church basement in order to buy their instructional materials, like people have to do in French schools in Ontario and Saskatchewan? That is what it takes to get service in French in our country, in Canada, where there are two official languages. In order for francophones to obtain services in our own language, we have to scrape together all our pennies, whereas all the books and documents in English are provided automatically. I would like to hear your response about the money issue. I would like to know how you are going to shake up the department in order to free up the resources to buy instructional material for these students.

[Mary McFadyen]

My office believes that new members of the military should be treated in a fair and equitable manner. It is not necessarily an issue of resources, that is the department's problem.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I understand what you are saying, Ms. McFadyen, but fairness is based on concrete action. It is not enough to philosophize and to table a report saying that the system is not fair. I would like to hear you say that the department is not spending enough to ensure that there is fairness in the system. This has to be highlighted and proven. National Defence is a quagmire for anyone wishing to have a career in French. Everyone knows there is no fairness, this has been proven. We absolutely have to pick up on more of these details. I do my job, we are doing our job, but National Defence is not doing its job, I think we can all agree on that. There is a reason we are here. Mr. Petit said earlier that often people from National Defence appeared before the committee, and there is a reason for that, and he agrees me with on that point.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

It is now Mr. Godin's turn.