Official Languages Committee on March 13th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Perfect, Mr. Godin, you have two and a half minutes left.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay. In the English version, it says:

“If you are applying for the naval technician training program you must complete and submit an admission form to the marine institution.” They don't say it is only in French because they are speaking to the anglophone community.

I am wondering if your research went beyond just Borden, Kingston, Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu and Gagetown. The Department of National Defence uses private colleges. According to the National Defence website, some courses are only available in one language.

[Mary McFadyen]

I agree with you, there are problems everywhere. That is why we are going to assist the Commissioner of Official Languages during his audit, so that training in the Canadian Forces, be it provided by an instructor, an entrepreneur or a public servant, is in both languages.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Is it not insulting to see that in 2008? We have been saying for almost 10 years that the Department of National Defence is not respecting the Official Languages Act. Yet we are learning this morning that this department is still providing courses in English only in some provinces and in some institutions. The other official language community does not even have access to that training.

[Mary McFadyen]

I agree with you. The courses should be provided in both languages, to be fair and equitable for all members of the Canadian Forces.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

We will now give the floor to a member from the government side.

Mr. Lemieux.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. McFadyen, thank you for your presentation. Your testimony, like that of your predecessor whom we heard from last November, is key to understanding the situation in Borden.

I think that everyone—certainly all of the members here—agree that the situation in Borden must be improved. The government must find practical workable solutions. The Canadian Forces has a long way to go, after having been neglected for over a decade.

I was in the Canadian Forces for 20 years. I am proud of the initiatives for francophones and bilingualism that our government has taken. Reopening the Royal Military College in Saint-Jean is an example. When I enrolled in the armed forces at 17, I went directly to the Royal Military College in Saint-Jean. I was really disappointed when the former government shut down the college. I am very proud that we have now reopened it.

The Canadian Forces is trying to improve its bilingual training and its bilingual system. The last system was a complete failure. The commissioner said it was a failure. Something must be done. To my mind, the Canadian Forces are trying to react positively.

Your predecessor, Mr. Côté, was deeply concerned about the situation in Borden, but he also mentioned that certain constraints existed, like the fact that it is sometimes difficult to assign francophones to Borden as they prefer to remain in a francophone environment, which is normal. So we need to be pragmatic and take concrete steps that will improve the situation in Borden.

In my view, the challenge appears to be finding qualified bilingual personnel. The Canadian Forces training system is under great pressure because they are attempting to increase enrolment. Therefore, they are accepting a lot of recruits, but there is a shortage of resources to increase the training, because of the operational tempo. For example, the Van Doos are in Afghanistan. So the francophones who could help us in Borden are currently participating in an operation. Those are the major challenges we are facing.

You went over several recommendations, which came both from your predecessor and members of Parliament as well as from elsewhere. In your opinion, would those recommendations help effectively resolve the problem?

Of all the recommendations you've seen and considered and studied, could you share with us which ones you would find more effective in quickly resolving the situation that exists at Borden--and, now that you've identified it, that also exists in Gagetown, and in Saint-Jean at the recruit school?

[Mary McFadyen]

I think it's fair to say that what we found won't necessarily be solved by resources. In lots of cases it's a question of attitude, just changing the attitude and making people aware that people have the right to operate in the official language of their choice. That is one thing we've really focused on.

A lot of the stuff that we've suggested needs to take place does not cost that much money. Having a place for someone to go and complain if they don't know where to get their services, if they need help with something, is a right. People need to be able to express themselves and get service in the language of their choice. It will not necessarily cost the department a lot of money to do that.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

No, I agree with you, I don't think money is the solution here. But to my understanding, if, for example, someone is going to teach a course to mechanics, vehicle technicians, or weapons technicians, and they are unilingual, as a qualified instructor--they have the necessary experience, they've taken the necessary training courses, but they're unilingual--it's a challenge for them to actually offer bilingual training. To me, finding someone who is qualified as well as bilingual is where the challenge is.

But from the comments that you just now made, are you stating that actually most instructors are bilingual and they're just choosing to speak one language?

[Mary McFadyen]

No, not at all.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Okay, because when you mentioned attitude, it makes it sound like the instructor doesn't have the right attitude and therefore is deciding to teach in only one language and not the other.

[Mary McFadyen]

No.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I think it's more of a skill set, and that's why I was saying that I think le grand défi, the big challenge, is to find people who are qualified in their own technical trade to teach and who are bilingual, so that they are able to teach in English and in French and offer bilingual service.

[Mary McFadyen]

Certainly, it is a challenge sometimes to find people who have the specific technical qualifications and are bilingue. We're having people take these courses who need to understand, usually for matters of safety and also so that they can get ahead in the Canadian Forces, so that they can understand what they're learning in their mother tongue. There will have to be steps taken so that it's only fair--and again our office looks at fairness--that people are able to get that instruction in both languages.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I guess what I'm asking is this. Of the recommendations you've seen, which recommendations will most effectively ensure that bilingual service is delivered to unilingual anglophones or francophones depending on what base they're on?

[Mary McFadyen]

I think we just have to make sure the department takes it seriously, and they will have to make some effort to find people and to teach these courses. It's only a matter of fairness that the students are entitled to get these courses in the language they can understand.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much.

We do not have much time left. We can do a final four-minute round.

We will now go to the official opposition and to Mr. Pablo Rodriguez.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Good morning, Madam. I want to welcome you. I will be very direct. I sense that you are very timid and reluctant to criticize or to judge the Canadian Forces. Am I mistaken?

[Mary McFadyen]

No, that is not true. I have been working in the Office of the Ombudsman for five years and it is our role to make recommendations to obtain positive changes within the department.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I have the impression we are going around in circles. Perhaps we should invite you back in two weeks, because then, we will have a better understanding. You received information Friday that we do not have access to today. An investigation was conducted in January, and we do not have access to the conclusions today, and they are key to the study on what will happen next in Borden.

I put that out to the committee: we may invite you back to obtain specific answers to certain questions. As you know, time moves on. I am looking at Mr. Côté's report. In his terms, the problem was urgent. It needed to be dealt with urgently, and the allegations or the issues contained in his report are extremely serious. Time is going by and I do not have the impression that any progress is being made. That is why I am so eager to see your report.

In your view, when francophones are recruited and when young people go there, do they have any idea, or do they know that they will undergo training in a place, or in a world that is almost entirely unilingual anglophone?

[Mary McFadyen]

I cannot answer that question.

I don't know what they're told. I know they have to go to basic training somewhere, and there are only certain places they can get it. Certainly with respect to this issue, we received the information. We went back to Borden in January.

I apologize if the committee thinks we've taken a long time to analyze this, but we certainly just want to be sure that the department has done what it said, and if there are more things they need to do, we will ensure that they do it.

That's one of the positive things of our office. We make recommendations, but we do have the right to go public and to put pressure on the government to change things if we see that there is something wrong. That's what we will do once we've looked.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

With all due respect, we are not sensing that pressure. We are reserving our comments for the report. Those are my initial comments. I sensed your reluctance in this area.

We are talking specifically about Borden, but I wonder if the changes made by the Conservative government, in particular the decision to abandon certain obligations linked to bilingualism for senior officers, was not sending a bad message, generally or in specific cases, like Borden. That is a change in attitude in government policy. We have the impression that the Conservative government has taken a step backward regarding the obligations of the Canadian Forces in terms of bilingualism.

[Mary McFadyen]

The issue of whether they've changed the linguistic profile for senior officers may be something the official languages commissioner will look at when he's looking at his vérification de l'apprentissage.

We went out to bases, we saw unfairness in how these recruits were being treated, and that's what we have focused on.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Are you aware of specific cases? Mr. Côté told us about francophones who were being intimidated, probably even roughed up, when they dared to ask for services in French. Are you aware of that? Were you made aware of any concrete examples like that?