Official Languages Committee on March 13th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

That is your last question, Mr. Rodriguez.

[Mary McFadyen]

As regards the second visit to Borden, I think that I can say the situation had improved somewhat.

As to whether we saw any examples, I'll ask Denis to answer, since he's the director of the enquête.

[Denis Egglefield, Director of Investigations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman, Department of National Defence]

In the case of Borden specifically, we have noted an improvement in certain areas and a decrease in the number of problems raised by students, be it in terms of service or training. Having said that, many problematic situations remain in Borden, but I do not have concrete examples at my fingertips. However, I can tell you that according to the students whose comments we collected, problems have considerably decreased and there has been progress. Our intervention has given rise to improvement. We also note some impatience among students. They want the situation to be resolved quickly, which is understandable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to the government side, to the Conservative Party.

Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Good morning, Madam. Following a short preamble, I will ask you some questions about Borden or what you know about the base. You have given us an overview of the situation at several bases, be it at Gagetown, Borden or Valcartier, which is in my riding, and of the situation regarding bilingualism.

Over the past two or three years, the Canadian Forces have received new funding for equipment, among other things. But as you know, our soldiers deployed to Kandahar in green uniforms rather than beige ones. There is nothing more ridiculous than that. In addition, we could not even transport our soldiers into a given theatre of operations. We had to use American planes to transport them.

Is this underfunding not also a problem in terms of teaching materials in Borden? My colleagues asked earlier if there were books, among other things. We have been ridiculed for two or three years because of the underfunding of the Canadian Forces. Have you seen this underfunding resulting in a shortage of books, making it impossible to provide training in both French and English?

At present, the recruitment of francophones is higher than it has ever been. How are you going to meet the demand? Are you short of funds, professors, schools? What are you currently short of? You undoubtedly noted that something was missing in Borden, I am sure of that.

[Mary McFadyen]

At Borden, they certainly have an influx of nouveaux militaires, and the department has to deal with this. There is new money, it is my understanding, to go towards Borden. They just have to make sure things are translated, that there are services available.

It's very important. It's at a time when the department is recruiting new people, and they have to be fully trained. It's only fair.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Yes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Members of the military who came to speak to us last November had good intentions. You are following in Mr. Côté's footsteps and that is not necessarily easy. The question is simple: did you find out which books were in Borden? Were there enough? They are the very basis of teaching. If a francophone coming to Borden does not even have a book in French, at least a book telling him where the clinic is, the doctor's office or the dormitory, what should he do? Is there at least that minimum? Is there a lack of money? What is the problem? There must be a problem because otherwise we would not be here today.

[Mary McFadyen]

That is a good question. During our second visit to Borden, we surveyed new military members and we interviewed the chain of command. We noticed that services were available in both languages.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Petit.

We will now continue with Mr. Gravel.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ombudsman, you mentioned in your opening remarks that you had noted the same problems in Saint-Jean, Borden and Gagetown. The problem is the opposite one in Saint-Jean. However that is not the information we have. The teachers in Saint-Jean have told us that everything is bilingual, that there is not a problem and that services are offered in both languages. I don't know why you made that statement.

What are your grounds for stating that Saint-Jean and Borden are experiencing the same problems? What research material were you provided with?

[Mary McFadyen]

We received complaints from Saint-Jean telling us that they are experiencing the same problem as in Borden. We then sent a team of investigators to Saint-Jean to look into the situation. We noted that it was difficult to obtain services in both languages, as in Borden. The problem is not as extensive, but it does exist nonetheless.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Are you telling us that anglophones are experiencing the same problem as francophones?

[Mary McFadyen]

Yes.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

That really is not the information we have. If what you are saying is true, then that means that there is material, there are books in French at Saint-Jean, given that the problem is the opposite. If that is the problem, then why does Saint-Jean not help Borden and Borden do the same? Teachers could be sent there; it is the same department and the same material. It would not cost very much to send material.

[Mary McFadyen]

I cannot answer that question. That involves military command.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You could make the suggestion.

[Mary McFadyen]

I don't know if we could solve the problem by moving teachers.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

That is not what I am saying. We are told that Borden lacks French material. People have to take courses in French but with English material. If that is true, why not use what has already been translated into French from Saint-Jean?

[Mary McFadyen]

The courses offered at Saint-Jean are not the same as those offered at Borden.

[Denis Egglefield]

In most cases, the courses being offered are different. Even though the training problem in Saint-Jean seems less extensive at first blush, we want to make sure after having proceeded with our investigation, that we can provide you with accurate information. Currently the problem appears to be less extensive.

In answer to your question about training material, the courses offered at Saint-Jean are basic training courses directed mainly at recruits. Those differ from the technical courses, for example the vehicle technician course, that are offered at Borden. Therefore, transferring instructors from one place to the other is difficult because we are talking about different courses.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I understand. Does that mean that soldiers who are trained in Saint-Jean are not as well trained as those being trained in English at Borden?

[Denis Egglefield]

These are different courses. The basic courses provided to recruits at Saint-Jean, whether those recruits be anglophone or francophone, meet the same standards. It is a question of the availability of training. It appears that the wait time for training recruits at Saint-Jean, whether they be anglophone or francophone, is basically the same. The availability of the courses appears to be the same, which is not the case in Borden nor in Gagetown.