Official Languages Committee on April 10th, 2008

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Blaney.

Good morning, Mr. Corbeil.

I do not find the figures surprising. I have been interested in this issue for a very long time. And yet, some things still surprise me a little. I did not hear you say the word “assimilation” once, but you did use the word “anglicization”. Surely we agree that this is the same thing.

I remember when I worked for the FFHQ, which became the FCFA, we talked about retaining French in minority communities. The retention rate among young people in Saskatchewan was 15%. At one point, it went up to 15.4%. What this means is that the assimilation rate was 84%.

I would like to look at the chart at the bottom of page 3. If I were in charge of a construction site and if 20% of my workers died each year, I would be asking myself some serious questions. The assimilation rates since 1951 have been alarming, and are not getting any better. We are well aware that this situation exists, and the reason it still exists is that there has always been a lack of political will to show the proper respect for francophone minority communities.

Henri Bourassa's favourite old theory regarding Quebec and its satellites, which we have been hearing from the Department of Canadian Heritage for I do not know how long, simply does not work, unless it is used to show how quickly francophones can be assimilated.

Earlier, we were wondering how the assimilation rates could be so high. This is of concern to Mr. D'Amours, who is from “République du Madawaska”, the home of the Brayons, which is a very francophone region compared to other places outside Quebec. And you can imagine what the situation is like in places other than Quebec or Acadia.

The provinces are in charge of health care services—after all people are born before they go to school—and they run the school systems and the social services that provide assistance to families and young people who are experiencing difficulties. All these areas come under provincial jurisdiction. Income support is also an area of provincial jurisdiction. And it was the provinces that abolished the school system and services in French. They did not want to set up services in French. They have done so quite recently in an effort to please Quebec, because there is talk about independence there. They did so to please Quebeckers, not to please their minority communities. I have experienced this myself. The federal government closes its eyes to the issue, or it tries to apply a plaster cast to wooden legs. That is the situation we face.

Mr. Coderre and Mr. Lemieux find this funny, but I find it extremely sad, and that is why, as a Franco-Ontarian and Fransaskois, I have come to support independence for Quebec. One has only to see what has happened to francophone minority communities in Canada. That is the fact of the matter.

When Statistics Canada produces a table such as the one at the bottom of page 3, do you analyze the reasons for this downward trend line? I know you work with statistics, and that it is not up to you to analyze political will. Do you do any studies of these non-existent services so that this situation is perpetuated? Unfortunately, it all depends on political will, and if the idea really is to cause francophones to disappear from provinces other than Quebec...

Do you go that far? Do you look into issues such as this?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Your question is important. Despite the fact that the Canadian census includes seven questions pertaining to language—Canada is the only country in the world to ask such questions in a census—an inquiry on the vitality of minority groups allows us to delve into this entirely new phenomenon and his entirely novel. We also looked into questions of perception. It is obvious that these involve complex dynamics. It is difficult to determine which comes first, the chicken or the egg. For example, we know that many francophones living outside Quebec, who identify with both groups do not demand services because they feel they are bilingual. Other researchers have provided evidence of this, including Rodrigue Landry from the Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities.

There's also demographic information, information on the weight of minorities. Studies clearly show that the larger a population in a given municipality is, the more likely they are to demand services, and to pass on their language to their children. Obviously, 40% of francophones living outside of Quebec live in communities where they make up less than 10% of the population. It is certain that this influences not only their behaviour, but their perceptions. Our observations are that people living in these municipalities tend to decide what is important for them. Most of these people feel that it is very important that their children speak the language of the minority. Nonetheless, in some cases, parents decide to send their children to English-speaking schools because the quality of the curriculum is better, or there is no other school available, or for many other reasons. However, it is clear that the lack of availability of services causes people to make greater rise of the language of the majority.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Corbeil and Mr. Nadeau.

We now move on to Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Firstly, welcome to the committee. You said earlier that francophones are leaving the regions to move to Quebec, and to Alberta. A significant number of francophones have left Acadia and headed to Alberta. This is the result of the economic problems in this country. Some say that there are no economic problems because there are plenty of jobs, and that we even have to bring in immigrants to fill positions, and that still, there seems to be a shortfall. Nonetheless, all of the employment is concentrated in one anglophone province. This cannot be denied. Alberta is an anglophone province.

When the number of francophones in a region falls, in comparison to the number of anglophones, does your study follow up on what happens to those people? They did not all pass away. They have changed the demographic landscape, but where did they go?

Do you have statistics indicating exactly where they are? Are there French schools in the areas these francophones have moved to? What type of community support can these people expect? Do they live in an anglophone area? Do they find themselves alone and tell themselves that it is much easier to use English? As you said earlier, sometimes the English-language schools and programs are the best ones.

Is this information revealed in your study?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Your question is very important. It underscores the importance of research and the importance of having sufficiently solid data bases that contain this type of information.

In the census, people are asked where they lived five years ago, and where they lived one year ago. This allows us to know where they have settled. As for whether or not they received services and access to schools, administrative files allow us to obtain this type of information. Nonetheless, to answer that type of question, we need information, we need data bases, we need research. Otherwise, we find ourselves in a fog, things are vague.

We have a partial understanding of where these people settled, but we are not fully aware of the reasons. You talk about New Brunswick. There has been a significant movement of people from rural regions to more urban areas. We do not have a lot of information to understand the causes of this phenomenon.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Therefore, some data is lacking. You would need to carry out a more in-depth study.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

It is clear that a study is necessary to better understand these phenomena. For example, when young people in New Brunswick leave rural regions, infrastructure in those areas become eroded in the long term because the population is aging. There is also the issue of employment and economic infrastructure. It is a matter of trying to understand the links between all of these different elements.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

During our national tour, we spoke of day cares that are housed in French-language schools. By sending children to a day care in a French-language school, parents living in Vancouver or even Edmonton can give their children a chance to speak French starting at a very young age, and to then maintain these language skills later. At home, the children also speak French. With respect to English, this language is learned automatically. One does not live in Alberta or Vancouver without picking up English.

I wonder if in doing your research, you asked francophones why their children end up becoming anglophones. This lies at the heart of the problem. Under the action plan, what should be given priority in order to make sure that francophones in the rest of Canada and anglophones living in Quebec can keep their language?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Some studies have shown that the choice of an English- or French-language school or day care depends a lot on availability. Nonetheless, one significant challenge is that a rather high proportion of francophones living outside of Quebec are married to anglophone spouses.

Studies have shown that in many cases, francophones already become anglicized before entering into a partnership with an anglophone spouse. Sometimes, this makes the choice of school or day care difficult. In fact, once an anglophone spouse is in the picture, the decision becomes automatic. Exogamy and the increase of exogamous couples living outside of Quebec represent a significant challenge.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Our study shows that English-language schools have been shut down because new ones had to be built. On the other hand, these old schools, being unusable, were passed on to francophones. This is not very appealing. In fact, it had been decided that these schools could no longer be used by the English-speaking community because they were lacking in gyms and other facilities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Your time is up, Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

In your research, you also talked about the quality of education.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

One of the reasons some francophone parents gave for having chosen English-language schools rather than French-language schools was the quality of programs and available resources.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you. We'll now move on to the parliamentary secretary, Mr. Lemieux.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your presentation and for your slides.

It's obvious when you look at these results that this is a complicated matter. There are several criteria which can help us a lot in evaluating the two official languages throughout Canada.

There is, however, one basic question which needs to be asked. Over the course of our committee meetings, the question has been asked as to what the words "anglophone" and "francophone" actually mean. Occasionally, when a member asks a question of a representative of an organization from a minority official language community, the word "francophone" is troublesome.

Based on the results that have been presented to us today, could you give me a definition that Statistics Canada uses for the words "anglophone" and "francophone"?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Thank you. That's an excellent question. And right now, it is the subject of much debate among researchers. There is no official definition, per se, as to what an anglophone or a francophone actually is.

In the past, Statistics Canada used to base its definition of the word francophone on the criteria of the mother tongue, which is the definition in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and in the Official Languages Act. This is the first language learned at home in one's childhood and still understood at the time of the census. However, since 1991—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Just a moment, please. Out of respect for our witness and so that we can hear what he's saying, I would ask members who want to engage in side discussions to do so outside the room.

Please go ahead, Mr. Corbeil.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Since 1991, the notion of first spoken official language has been used. In fact, this concept was derived from questions which already were part of the census, namely knowledge of the official languages, the mother tongue, and the language spoken at home. The notion of first spoken official language is used by many people in the community because it takes into account those people for whom the mother tongue is neither French nor English.

For example, Canada has taken in over one million new immigrants over the past five years. Now, 80% of these people don't have French or English as their mother tongue. As a rule, the term "allophone" was used to designate those people who spoke another language, however, increasingly, people speak English from a young age. Even though English isn't their mother tongue, they consider themselves anglophones. In the same way, outside Quebec, immigrants from Algeria or Morocco whose mother tongue is Arabic consider themselves francophones because they use French on a daily basis. And that is why Statistics Canada has not imposed any definition of the word "francophone".

I am aware that there is a lot of debate over the criteria used to define francophones. Some people believe that a francophone is someone who speaks French at home, for others it's the mother tongue, and for some it's the first spoken official language.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I noticed in the summary of the results that the figures were quite similar from 2001 to 2006, although there was perhaps an increase of 1, 2 or 3% in one category and a comparable drop in another category. Are these results significant? Is it possible that the confusion over the definition of the terms "francophone" and "anglophone" has led to a variation in the results? Do individuals who fill out the census forms and the information-providing organizations have a clear understanding of these definitions?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

That's an excellent question. In the Canadian census, the words "francophone" and "anglophone" appear nowhere. We ask a question about the language which was first learned. It might be French, English or another language. In a significant number of cases, people have two mother tongues, namely English and French. So someone has to decide, but it is not necessarily us. Some people choose to use this double category; others place people under "French", and yet others under "English". Statistics Canada publishes information based on the census, but nowhere does the census form define what a francophone or an anglophone is.

I will answer the second part of your question. The situation has changed greatly in the past five years. In fact, this is mainly due to the strong increase in immigration. I mentioned that Canada received 1.1 million new immigrants in the last five years. The relative importance of English as mother tongue has decreased, as has the relative importance of French as mother tongue. It is the most significant decrease we have observed in the last few years.

As for whether the number of francophones has increased, if you use the mother tongue criteria, there is definitely a decrease, with regard to both English and French. However, Quebec anglophones identify with the concept of first spoken official language, since approximately 13% of the anglophone population indicates English as being its first official spoken language. However, if you use the criteria of mother tongue, it would be 8.1% of the population.

This is the choice made by people living outside Quebec. Some prefer using the mother tongue to define francophones. In Ontario, some people prefer to use only the criteria of French spoken in the home. That would bring down the number from 500,000 to 300,000 people. That is why Statistics Canada does not provide a definition.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lemieux.

We will now begin our second round with Mr. Coderre from the official opposition.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Corbeil.

Listening to you, it's as if you were forecasting the weather: you can say what you want with statistics. I was the Minister of Immigration and I can tell you that Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians are part of the Francophonie, they are very francophone even though they speak Arabic; they nevertheless are francophones. I think it is rather arbitrary to depict the situation in a certain way and to play with the notion of allophone. I don't feel quite comfortable with that.

Please explain your methodology to me. Contrary to my friends Mr. Nadeau and Mr. Beauchemin, who believe that francophones living outside Quebec are "warm corpses", I think we must be vigilant. Whether you agree or not with the services provided or with the philosophy of each political party with regard to the promotion of a language and, consequently of community groups, remains a political issue.

I would like us to examine more closely the notion of allophone, because this data is essential if we are to get an accurate picture of the country. I think that we generally need to see the situation more clearly.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Thank you for your question.

I will pick up where I left off in my response to Mr. Lemieux. Take Quebec, for example. In the last five years, 75% of allophones, that is, people whose mother tongue is neither English nor French, speak French at home more often than not. Among the people who arrived in the last five years and who speak either English or French at home, but not their mother tongue, in 75% of cases, that language is French. Of course, we can call them francophones.

Historically, Statistics Canada distinguished between French, English and other languages, and used the words "francophone", "anglophone" and "allophone"... What is interesting and important is to recognize the transition and the evolution of language patterns. If we called all those who adopted or spoke French most often at home or in their daily lives, but who also speak another language, such as Arabic or Romanian, as their mother tongue—

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

In my view, that is a misinterpretation, with all due respect. In fact, we talk about Maghrebians, who speak Arabic, of course, but who are francophones and not allophones. When we participate in international conferences, we clearly understand that. For the most part, these people ask for simultaneous translation into French, for example. For me, they are francophones.

We worked on immigration not only with Quebec, but I also signed agreements, for example, with New Brunswick or most certainly Manitoba. That enabled me to realize that they were not allophones who had the ability to learn French more easily, and therefore to integrate into the francophone community, but that they were francophones who contributed to the vitality and protection of the French fact.

That is why I am saying that your approach is somewhat subjective. We know that the issue, the definition of the word "allophone" and all the rest is an ongoing debate. I am not sure that I share your premises nor that I agree with the way you classify people.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

The Canadian census does not provide information on francophones, anglophones, or allophones. We know, for example, that a person's mother tongue is French, English or another language. Of course, we use this mother tongue criterion. As you say, we could also as easily use the language spoken at home criterion, as we could use the language spoken at work. However, since there are sometimes significant differences between linguistic behaviour in the home, at work, and in terms of mother tongue, it may become quite hazardous to say that a person is francophone because he uses French on a daily basis. That person may well use Arabic more often in the home.

That is simply to give you an idea. People whose mother tongue is Arabic use Arabic at home, whereas others whose mother tongue is the same use French more often at home. We are not attempting to sidestep this complex aspect, but we must use a term. Perhaps we could change the term over time. Debates are currently underway on how to define someone whose mother tongue is French. Is someone francophone, or should we say that the person is someone who learned French first in childhood and who still understands it? Perhaps we need to find a term? I do nevertheless recognize that immigrants and those that we call allophones often tell us that they are not allophones, but francophones.