Official Languages Committee on April 10th, 2008

[Some honourable members]

Oh, oh!

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I will let you know.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You mentioned immigration as a way to increase the number of francophones in Quebec, for example. But the way that the question is asked does not allow immigrants to identify as francophones. For example, you were talking earlier about Morocco, etc., where francophone immigrants might come from.

According to the statistics, if I have this right, is French not spoken more than it used to be in Montreal? Because the question asks whether people are francophones, it might appear that the proportion of francophones has declined, since many have moved to the South Shore. But is not true that more people are speaking French now in Montreal? For example, young anglophones are speaking French much more now than they did 20 or 30 years ago. Is that what the statistics and the data show?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

The issue of the Island of Montreal is a major one for many people. We've seen that recently, in the media among other places. It's quite clear that, for example, the rate of bilingualism among Quebec anglophones has been constantly increasing since at least 1971. We know that in 2001, 66% of anglophones identified themselves as bilingual. Five years later, that percentage was 69%.

It's quite clear that when you ask questions about the use of language at work, Quebec anglophones use French in their daily work lives. In fact, almost 60% of Quebec anglophones state that they use French either most often or at least regularly in the course of their work.

Of course if you only rely on the mother tongue, it's true that it's the first time that the proportion of people whose mother tongue is French has gone under 50% on the Island of Montreal. It's the first time, but if you use criteria other than mother tongue, since you also have to take into account immigrants whose mother tongue may not be French but who use it in their daily lives or who speak it at home, the picture that emerges is quite different.

I think that knowledge of French is on the increase among those we call "allophones". Perhaps I should say instead those who have a third language as mother tongue. There's also an increase in the use of French among anglophones in Quebec. Therefore, this is a real phenomenon.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Could you elaborate on the fact that the proportion of anglophones was 59% but now it's 57% and that francophones went from 22% to 22.1%. It's a very small increase but it's an increase nevertheless.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

In fact, there was an increase in the number of—I'm almost afraid to use the terms "anglophone", "francophone", "allophone"—people whose mother tongue is French in Quebec. That's clear. However, given that there was a high increase in immigration over the past five years, it's quite clear that the proportion that these people represent has declined. So there's been an increase in number but a reduction in the proportion: it's the same for English outside Quebec. When 80% of new immigrants have neither French nor English as their mother tongue, it is quite clear therefore there is going to be a decrease in the proportion of anglophones in Quebec.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

That doesn't mean that they don't speak English nor does it mean that they don't speak French.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Absolutely. You're perfectly right. We know that outside Quebec, the longer people stay here, immigrants whose mother tongue is neither English or French will mainly use English, whereas in Quebec, we've observed the fact that French tends to be adopted more and more by allophones.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

I just want to reassure our witness and tell him that he enjoys parliamentary immunity. Still, you did clearly express that Statistics Canada does not refer to "francophone" or "anglophone" in its survey, but this is the interpretation of the data by those who use it.

We'll now go on to the third round, the last one before we adjourn.

We'll continue immediately with Mr. Rodriguez.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm listening to all this with great interest. I'd like to ask you a personal question. I arrived in Canada at the age of eight. I only spoke Spanish until I was eight years old. I learned French at eight years old. I learned English a short time afterwards.

So in what category would I be?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

That's a good question.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

[Editor's note: inaudible] my first language.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

If I took your case, if I managed to use census data and if I had Mr. Rodriguez's information, I could see that your mother tongue is Spanish. For the question on the language that you use most often at home, you might indicate both English and French or just French.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

French.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Perhaps you'd tell me that at work, you mainly use French. I don't know. I would therefore say that you belong to the group whose mother tongue is the third language or that you're an allophone. If we use another criterion, we might also say that you're francophone.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I'm referring to the statement made by colleague Mr. Coderre. I consider myself francophone.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Yes. I'll give you a very specific example. In December 2008, Statistics Canada will be disseminating a CD-ROM which will contain the profile of all census data in the 6,000 municipalities of Canada. There are two profiles: the mother-tongue profile and the first-official-language-spoken profile, French.

Perhaps you wouldn't want to limit yourself and fall into the allophone category...

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

No, I'm not insecure. It's not really with regard to me personally, but I think that it does distort the debate somewhat when we talk about the situation of French in Canada. I learned French very young. I won literature and composition competitions twice. At home, we only speak French, but I'm not counted among the statistics on francophones. So I make it seem like French is regressing. Do you understand what I mean? I'm not part of those statistics whereas in my opinion, that's not the case at all.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Having said that, you're not making French regress. From the census, I can find out that among those who have Spanish as a mother tongue, how many speak French most often at home.

But I agree with you. In the survey on the vitality of minorities, a question was asked that does not appear in the census and which is quite simple. We asked what the main language was, the one in which the person felt most at ease. So we have a very good estimate of those for whom French is the main language and those for whom English is the main language. One could use one's own definition of what constitutes a francophone or an anglophone. However, I agree that there's a difference between...

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I consider myself francophone but I'm not counted among francophones.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I fully agree with your viewpoint. There's a gap between the analyses we conduct using census data and the terminology we use to categorize people. I agree with you.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Let's talk a bit about Montreal. What is the exact situation of French in Montreal? There are all kinds of interpretations. Depending on what cause you advocate, you interpret the figures differently. Is it true that the absolute number of francophones has increased but that their proportion has decreased?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

It depends whether you look at the Island of Montreal or Greater Montreal.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I'm talking about the island. You may tell me that many francophones left the island to settle in the suburbs. Therefore there are more allophones who settle on the island and francophones who leave it.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

What we know is that historically, people whose mother tongue is English and people whose mother tongue is other than French or English settle mainly in Montreal. The longer they stay, the more they tend to migrate to the suburbs.

Francophones do the same thing. Of course, given the demographic weight of francophones and people whose mother tongue is French on the Island of Montreal, it's quite clear that when all these immigrants arrive and—