Official Languages Committee on April 15th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

I would ask all the committee members to take their seats so that we can begin.

Good morning, and welcome, everyone, to the 26^th meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we will begin our study of the broadcast by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation of the Canadian Songwriters Hall of Fame Gala.

I would like to begin by telling the committee members that I received the letter from the president of the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française, Ms. Raymonde Boulay LeBlanc, who would like me to give you the following message:

We at the FCCF were saddened to learn that the wording of his statement, on the occasion of the departure of the Honourable Mauril Bélanger from his position as critic for Heritage Canada, Official Languages and the Francophonie, caused discomfort amongst the members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages, because this was never his intention. While paying tribute to the political work undertaken by the federal Liberal member for Ottawa-Vanier as critic, the FCCF remains fully aware of the unwavering commitment and political work of each member of the Standing Committee on Official Languages in advocating for the artistic and cultural sectors of the Canadian Francophonie, within the framework of the upcoming strategy of the federal government for official languages. The FCCF thanks them sincerely. It is essential that together we continue to collaborate to create a Canadian cultural and artistic space and to encourage holistic cultural action within the francophone minority of Canada in order to meet the challenges of the XXI^st century within a context of globalization.

We will now proceed with our witness, Mr. Richard Stursberg.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Official Languages. As you know, our committee mandate is to promote linguistic duality and it is within this context that we have invited you to give us a 10-minute presentation, followed by a round of questions from the committee members.

Mr. Stursberg, you have the floor.

[Richard Stursberg, Executive Vice-President, English Services, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation]

Thank you very much.

My name is Richard Stursberg. I am the head of English services for the CBC, including television, radio, websites, and so on.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to come and talk with you today. I understand that you've invited me here as head of CBC's English services to discuss our March broadcast of this year's Canadian Songwriters Hall of Fame gala.

In order to do that, I think it's important to provide you with some context about how we at English services contribute to Canada's shared national identity.

First, as you know, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is an arms'-length crown corporation. Its mandate, as well as the independence of its programming decisions, is spelled out in law in the Broadcasting Act.

I want you to know that, as Canada's public broadcaster, I believe we have a special role to play providing opportunities for French- and English-speaking Canadians to share their culture, their views, and their experiences. No other broadcaster is this country does this. At CBC we do it every day.

I'm not talking about symbolic or token gestures to put one culture in front of the other. I'm talking about sharing cultures in a meaningful way. I'm talking about taking creative ideas from one culture and adapting them for the other in a way that works for the audience and in a way that respects both cultures and the broadcast medium.

That why CBC and Radio-Canada work together in joint projects of deep cultural significant to both cultures: Documentaries like Hockey, a People's History, or the mini-series on Trudeau, and Lévesque. These are not some cheap translation of another language's programs. They are created together, from inception to broadcast.

When we produced the sitcom Ciao Bella!, a lighthearted look at the experiences of an Italian-Canadian woman living in Montreal, we shot every episode twice: Once in English, once in French. The completed series run on both CBC Television and la télévision de Radio-Canada.

Every day our foreign correspondents give a Canadian perspective on international events—filing their reports in English and French. No one else does that. On election nights, and for significant nation-building events, CBC and Radio-Canada work together to offer the best national perspective Canadians can get. In the last two years alone, we have jointly produced over 200 specials.

At CBC English services, we continually look for new ways to bring French culture to English Canadians in a way that will resonate with our audiences. In 2004 we launched the half-hour weekly show Au Courant, with Mitsou Gélinas. This show is dedicated to telling English-Canadian audiences about what French Canadians were talking about that week.

In fact, I had the pleasure of being President of Telefilm Canada and when we produced Denis Arcand's feature film, Les invasions barbares, Mitsou was part of the film cast. That is how I ended up having the pleasure of meeting her. It was therefore my idea to invite Mitsou to be the moderator of this show.

We chose Mitsou because she is an artist some English Canadians are at least a little familiar with from her career as an actress and as a pop star.

On CBC television in the past three years alone, we have broadcast French-language hits like Les Boys, Grande Ourse, and Seducing Dr. Louis (La grande séduction), as well as 36 other French-language titles representing almost 70 hours of programming.

Since 2002, our Newsworld documentary stream, The Lens, has commissioned and broadcast more than 30 documentaries with our colleagues at RDI or with other French-language broadcasters. We co-produced the award winning Culture-choc/Culture Shock, where emerging anglophone and francophone journalists share their perceptions of the experiences of other Canadians as they travel across the country.

On our English web radio service and on Sirius Satellite Radio we offer a segment called The French Connection. On this show our host, Craig Norris, holds a music exchange with our colleagues at Bande à part at Radio-Canada; they introduce new music to each other and to our audiences.

Several times a year, CBC Radio 3 and Bande à part host live events together, bilingual concerts with musicians performing in French and English. We did this last month during Canadian Music Week.

On CBC English radio, the successful C'est la vie continues to offer English Canadians a window into the lives of French-speaking Canadians from across the country. It has celebrated the career of diva Diane Dufresne, talked to a new wave of young, political filmmakers, traced the origin of poutine, and celebrated French love songs. One of its most popular segments is Word of the Week, which introduces anglophones to distinctly Canadian French words and phrases. The English radio program À propos broadcasts nothing but French music and French artists from Canada and around the world.

Last fall, CBC Regina and Radio-Canada put together Mon pays, My country, a bilingual evening of country music featuring Brad Johner, Donny Parenteau, Véronique L'Abbé and Louis Bérubé.

We have broadcast Marco Calliari performing at Festival du Bois in British Columbia; Brigitte Poulin and Silvia Mandolini, two of Montreal's hottest new artists, performing the Canadian premiere of Le souvenir de l'oubli by Montreal composer François Rose; and Terez Montcalm singing in French and English at the Franco-Manitoban Cultural Centre. The list is extensive.

Canada Live broadcasts live concerts from every region of the country; one-third of that content features French artists. It was Canada Live, in fact, that broadcast the entire Canadian Songwriters Hall of Fame gala.

Now let me say a few things about the songwriters' gala. CBC has hosted the gala for the past three years. The actual program is long—over three hours. Every year, we have broadcast the entire three and a half hour program on CBC Radio 2—you can do that on radio. It was also broadcast on CBC Radio One. Every year, we also take an edited version of the show—cut from three and a half hours down to 44 minutes—to broadcast on CBC Television. That edited program features artists that are popular with our audience. That's what we did this year.

Now, I understand that songwriter Claude Dubois was upset that he was honoured at the gala but was not part of the broadcast on CBC English television. I'm sorry he feels that way. And I'm sorry for the perception in the Quebec media that we at CBC English services were insulting French artists. That was not our intention. For all of that, I am really sorry.

But frankly, to call us racists and anti-French is outrageous, and I am a little surprised that members of Parliament, who were quick to express their desire to investigate our broadcast, did not speak out against that kind of attack. It is beneath us as a country; it is insulting to the people across CBC's English services who work in all the ways I have described, to try and find ways to showcase the Quebec culture to our English audiences in a way that works. That's not an easy task, and to call them racists is wrong and unfair.

Remember, we at CBC English services are making programs that are by definition for English-speaking audiences. If they don't understand our programs or can't relate to them, they won't watch them. It's as simple as that.

So we find ways to adapt French culture in ways that they will watch: stories like Rumours, our version of the French hit comedy Rumeurs; or our current hit Sophie, set in Toronto instead of Montreal, as is Les hauts et les bas de Sophie Paquin.

We will continue to look for those kinds of stories, for ways to showcase French artists, for ways to tell English Canadians about what's going on in French-language communities, for ways that CBC and Radio-Canada can work together to bring the best to Canadians. We do it because we believe in it.

Now I'd be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Stursberg.

We will now proceed with MPs. We'll start with the official opposition, beginning with the Honourable Denis Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Stursberg, thank you for coming today.

I have been working for the unity of this country for 25 years. For 25 years, modestly and humbly, I have been trying to build bridges between the communities. Your role is not to tell us that members are at fault because they were too quick in asking for an investigation. It is most certainly not our fault when an event has been held to celebrate singer-songwriters... Your job does not consist solely in pleasing an English audience. It is to demonstrate—and you'll probably talk about Mitsou and poutine again—that the purpose of this event was to celebrate what this country represents: two languages, several cultures, including francophone culture and anglophone culture, and the founding peoples of this country.

My citizenship is inclusive in that regard. You can talk to me about all the events that you hold, and we congratulate you on that. However, one specific event is a responsibility. When we ask for an investigation, it's because we want to know what is going on and we want to see the other side of the coin.

I am a fan of Claude Dubois. To be frank, I was insulted. There is also Raymond Lévesque. I am not a separatist, my culture is non-partisan. This is like me asking to take a photograph of us and asking you to stand in the background. That way I can cut it up and take what suits me.

I don't want to hold a cross-examination of CBC today; I want to understand what happened. Put yourself in our shoes. If we were to tell anglophone singer-songwriters that because we only had 44 minutes we were going to cut everything that was anglophone because we francophones only listen to music in French and didn't need it, what would you think? It's a little insulting, Mr. Stursberg.

You can produce a program that includes everyone. In 40 minutes you can give equal representation to the French segments because these performers did exceptional work. The idea is not to tell you that you didn't take your responsibilities in other areas. We're not dealing with a Don Cherry syndrome today. We're talking about this event because we want to understand what happened.

It took two days of people up in arms before you apologized. I wasn't a member of the committee but from what I understand it's because of this that an investigation was requested. I would simply like to know if next year you're going to do the same sort of dirty work. If there are singer-songwriters and a gala is being held, then you'll be able to tell us that... The idea is not to please the audience. Radio-Canada/CBC's mandate is to showcase what is happening in our country.

Next year, if there are francophones, will we still be treated as second-class citizens or are you going to make sure that, as your mandate dictates, francophones and anglophones will be on an equal footing?

[Richard Stursberg]

You know, it's very interesting; just to put this in perspective, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, the entire thing was on radio. When we cut it down to 44 minutes for television, what we were....

Obviously, when you cut three and a half hours down to 44 minutes, a lot of stuff has to go--a lot of stuff, good stuff. Our task this year was made particularly difficult by the fact that the great pianist Oscar Peterson had just died, and this was the first huge tribute to him.

So we cut it back. But I think it would be wrong to believe that we cut out only French-speaking singers. We did not. We also cut out English-speaking singers. Among those who were honoured at the gala, who were inducted into the hall of fame, were Les Emmerson, Alex Kramer, Dean Taylor, and none of them were--

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Stursberg, I understand that. That's not the issue here. The issue is that you had some people from the French-speaking culture, and none--zippo, nothing, nobody--were there.

My question is simple. If you're supposed to represent.... And if you want to talk about ratio, let's talk about ratio. But if you have some representatives and you want to put both cultures at the same level, don't you believe, with me, that...?

Of course you had to cut some, and some anglophones were cut, but as I read it, you're saying that you had to cut to please your watchers, who are anglophone.

Claude Dubois--

[Richard Stursberg]

Precisely. Our viewers are anglophone. As I said in my comments this morning, if I broadcast someone that nobody knows, then people will change the channel. It has to be said because this is very important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Stursberg.

For the sake of the interpretation, I would ask that only one person speak at a time. Mr. Coderre, allow Mr. Stursberg to finish before continuing with your questions.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Stursberg, I'm very familiar with the world of communications and the media and I know how this business works.

From listening to you one would think that you're the saviour of the two solitudes. You had a golden opportunity to build a bridge, to send a message to the rest of the country, to Quebeckers, that there are people of different cultures. How do you think we will be able to learn about those people if we don't have an opportunity to hear them?

[Richard Stursberg]

We have tried to build bridges by co-producing documentaries with our colleagues from RDI and Radio-Canada, by producing musical shows, shows for children, and many other initiatives.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Mr. Coderre, your time is up. I will allow Mr. Stursberg to briefly respond to your question and then we will move on to the next member.

[Richard Stursberg]

The best way to build bridges is to respect both our audiences' tastes, customs and languages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Stursberg.

We will now move on to Mr. Richard Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Stursberg, thank you for coming today.

I would also like to thank my colleague, Daniel Petit, who put this topic on the committee's agenda. It was perfectly justified.

Mr. Stursberg, I'm going to try and analyze this issue as objectively as possible. From the perspective of identity and culture, I think that what I have heard you state is very harmful. Allow me to explain.

First, you say that your viewers were made up of anglophones and that you had to respect their culture and avoid offending them from that point of view. That was the issue. If I look at this from the other end of the lens, I see that Quebec pays 25% of the taxes provided to CBC, and francophones living outside Quebec also pay their share of the funding allocated to CBC. The issue is not viewers, the issue is respect on the part of a gala whose purpose is to showcase music, song, music composition and the performers who are the standard-bearers of that music.

You tell me that you produce documentaries, that's well and fine but this program was not a documentary. The purpose of this show was to present culture, Quebec, Franco-Canadian, Acadian, Anglo-Canadian cultures all together in order to show Canadian taxpayers, regardless of where they live, this extraordinary variety of artists.

Mr. Dubois stood up and banged his fist on the table. I don't think he was only doing it for himself, he was also doing it for the principle. You were surprised that the media reported this. Listen, the issue is not the media. This is striking! When we found out about this, we felt excluded.

I'm going to give you an example that will explain why I perceive CBC the way I do. It's unfortunate and it has to change. When the 1972 Summit Series was going to be produced, Foster Hewitt spent some time at the Soviet Union's embassy in order to learn how to pronounce the names of the Soviet players. It was a very good exercise. Yet, throughout his career, he never learned to pronounce the names of Jean-Guy Talbot, Yvan Cournoyer or even Jean Béliveau. La Soirée du hockey arrived in 1976 in Western Canada. Before then, we used to listen to CBC. We couldn't see ourselves in the "Djang-Gaille Tâllboat" and "Djînn Ballâvô". CBC is still like that. We don't see ourselves in this machine, we don't see our culture, our points of reference. When there was going to be a Radio-Canada station in Saskatoon, everyone talked about "CBC French". I never, ever, saw CBC referred to in Quebec as "SRC anglaise".

You want to meet the needs of your public. Fine, but showcase reality. Why was the word "racist" used? Because we were excluded. Excluding individuals implies taking one group and not taking the other. In this case, francophones felt excluded and we're pointing it out to you. Don't tell me that you do other programs; I know that and that's fine. But when you produce a show whose purpose is to showcase music, you must make the effort to ensure that a quarter of your 45 minutes of programming will reflect a quarter of Canadian taxpayers who are francophone and who have the right to be represented in these types of programs.

I read the articles. They appeared in the month of March, not so long ago. Have you started giving serious consideration to a better representation of the cultures throughout the Canadian territory during the next gala show?

[Richard Stursberg]

Right now, we are thinking about what will happen at the gala.

But I must come back to the fact that, as I said to Mr. Coderre, we have made a real effort at the CBC to reflect the reality of our country and build bridges between the two cultures. Think about all the shows I mentioned and all the activities on TV and even on the radio. So focusing in on a single show and insisting that this or that has to be done on it is a bit limited, I think. I even have to come back...

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I understand what you are saying, but I do want you to be aware that the reason we are having this meeting this morning is to discuss the gala, which is national in scope. It is a one-evening show that showcases outstanding musicians and singers.

[Richard Stursberg]

The rules of the game were clear for everyone. We did the same show three years ago. We have focused each time on musicians and singers who are known in English Canada. There has been no change in policy. When we signed our contract with Mr. Dubois, we clearly indicated the broadcast conditions. I can quote the contract for you:

The Gala will be broadcast in its entirety on CBC Radio Two on Sunday, March 2^nd, 2008 and selected excerpts will be broadcast on CBC Radio One on Monday, March 3^rd. CBC Television will broadcast selected excerpts from the inductions of Paul Anka and Oscar Peterson, on Monday, March 3^rd [...]

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I understood the contract.

Mr. Stursberg, I simply want to highlight something. I come from a teaching background. When I used to ask my students to give me the names of Canadian artists, actors, singers and composers, from both English Canada and French Canada or Quebec, they had a lot of trouble doing it. However, they had no problem naming stars from American culture.

If we do not showcase both Quebec culture and English-Canadian culture, if we do not make the effort to make both Quebec and English-Canadian artists known, the frame of reference for our young people and listeners will always be the big American machine, which will influence our teenagers.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

If we want all members of the committee to have an opportunity to speak, we will have to stay within our respective time.

Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to welcome you to the committee on official languages, even though you feel that you should not be here this morning. I am surprised by your comments.

According to my information, this is not the first time that CBC has excluded francophones and broadcast anglophone artists from a gala. Is that true?

[Richard Stursberg]

It is not the first time that we have broadcast this gala. We only show it on television; it is not aired on radio. The musicians that the anglophone audience is most familiar with are anglophone.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

If we adopted your attitude, a good Acadian singer named Jean-François Breau would never have become known, even in Quebec. Radio-Canada could say that Jean-François Breau comes from Tracadie-Sheila and will not be given air time because people in Quebec do not know him.

There are 7 million Quebeckers and 250,000 Acadians. The Acadian Peninsula has a population of 60,000. Not all these people would be familiar with this singer. They would never have heard of Johnny Cash or Hank Williams, either, since they did not sing in French.

I have a lot of trouble with that idea, Mr. Stursberg. It is not as if it were a program where someone was saying things that the audience would not be able to understand. After all, this is a gala, which means singing and music. It is different.

I have been invited to performances of aboriginal singers. With all due respect, I have to say that I did not understand any of the lyrics, but I loved the sound and the music. There are three cultures. In fact, there are more than three cultures in Canada, but I will mention the first nations, who were the first inhabitants, and the two peoples, the English and the French, who came from Europe. I would be just as critical of Radio-Canada if it started to exclude certain singers. If people do not know Claude Dubois, maybe it is time to help them do so. It is a learning opportunity.

[Richard Stursberg]

Is that a question?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Do you want me to ask more?

[Richard Stursberg]

You know, we can go through this three or four different times, and I'm sorry if you don't like my answer to the question, but I think you have to grant one simple premise—well, two. One is that we actually know something about how to program radio and television networks in a way that works best for our audiences, and two is that in the context of attempting to actually build bridges between French and English Canada, we want to do so in a way that is going to be most effective.

I really don't believe there's much point in making programs that people are going to turn off. People don't learn anything in that way. So as I mentioned in my opening remarks, we have made enormous efforts--enormous efforts--to be able to do this, whether it's through dramas, documentaries, musical events, it doesn't matter.

Why we single out this one program, I frankly do not understand.

And if you are saying that all the rest does not count, then I am totally confused. I have the impression that the members of the committee think that the CBC and I are anti-francophone.