Official Languages Committee on Nov. 20th, 2007

[Yves Côté]

I don't think that prevents them from going to Borden. Borden is where a number of members of the Canadian armed forces go to once they have completed their basic training in Saint-Jean. It depends on the occupations they have chosen. They include cooks, mechanics, drivers or people working in logistics and administration. Be they francophones or anglophones, they head to Borden once they have completed their training in Saint-Jean. That is where the courses they need to obtain their occupational qualifications are given. In that sense, to respond to the member's question, Mr. Chairman, that does not prevent them from going there, except that, as I have indicated, once there, they are not necessarily treated with openness and given access to the services they might need to ensure they obtain their occupational qualifications.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

How can you explain that changes are so slow in coming? Are anglophones refusing to properly serve francophones? Is it because there is a lack of means? Is it a financial problem? What is the problem exactly?

[Yves Côté]

Mr. Chairman, the problem is first and foremost one of culture and attitude, which leads me to believe that it is essentially a leadership problem. Once the military leadership will have not only issued very clear messages, directives or even appropriate orders, but also decided to ensure close, disciplined and strict follow-up, I think things will change rather quickly.

What I find especially deplorable and regrettable about this situation is that francophones tell us that when they are at Borden and are told that they must learn English to integrate, to become normal, if you will; they get the impression they are being sent a cultural message, and it is a matter of openness.

It seems to me that all Canadian citizens, whether they be unilingual anglophones, francophones or whether they be bilingual, are entitled to be treated and welcomed in exactly the same way, regardless of where they are serving in the Canadian armed forces. Unfortunately, what we have seen, noted and especially heard from the recruits and students at Borden leads us to believe that the current situation isn't quite what it should be.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Do I still have some time left, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You have one minute remaining.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I will ask you for a brief response.

You said that you will be sending people to investigate in early 2008. If that doesn't bring about change, what do you intend to do?

[Yves Côté]

As I've indicated, I along with my office are extremely concerned about the issue. We will ensure follow-up on the ground at Borden to see where progress has been made. Obviously, I did not come here this morning to prejudge what could happen, but if the changes we are expecting, hoping for and, in a sense, demanding, are not made, we will make sure that the issue is brought to the attention of the appropriate authorities, including the Minister of National Defence, and that our views will be made public in a timely manner.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Côté.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gravel.

We will now move on to Mr. Yvon Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also thank Mr. Côté and Ms. Brandon for having come today. I want to congratulate you for the work that you have done up to now and for having made it public.

This is nothing new. The Standing Committee for Official Languages has determined through its studies that the Department of National Defence is the one that has violated the Official Languages Act more than any other department has. They have set new records in this field. I think that you are right in saying that this is a cultural issue and that it is not easy to change things. They must be wondering who these people are who dare to come and try to change the system at Borden. This might be coming from the upper ranks. When the government appoints people, it is responsible for making sure that those people are respectful of Canadian law.

Let me give you an example which I mentioned earlier, I think. It has to do with attitude problems. Last year, or two years ago, we went to Romania. We flew home in a plane belonging to the Canadian forces. This is just one small example, but it shows a great lack of respect. As we were boarding, we were not supposed to talk and we could only look at the picture, because there was nothing else to see. While I flew on that plane, they showed a movie. Usually, there is a first movie in English and a second one in French. I had no problem with the French movie being shown in the second place because both movies cannot be projected at the same time. To my great surprise, the second movie was also in English. With all the technology that is available today, they are not even able to show a movie in French to our francophone soldiers who are leaving Canada for Afghanistan. We are not asking that the big general learn French, we only want some technology. This example shows a problem with attitude.

Regarding what you have discovered, I do not want to be pessimistic, but I do feel that way after hearing what you said. A culture cannot be changed overnight. Do you not think that after all we should recommend that our francophone soldiers be trained in their own institutions? I do not understand how we can do it in any other way.

In New Brunswick, we finally decided that there would be francophone schools and anglophone schools. We cannot put both language groups in the same institution. One group will get the upper hand and put pressure on the other group. This is especially the case in National Defence, where all we hear is "yes sir" and "don't question what I say". If you want to stay, you must not become subject to disciplinary measures and you must not end up being put in a hole where you will get rough treatment. You must follow the rules.

You can continue your studies with an eye on the future, but I think that you must keep in mind that this is an impossible mission that cannot succeed. We will never be able to put both groups together while making sure that the francophones are treated with respect. This will never succeed.

I would like to hear what you think of this, because I feel pessimistic.

[Yves Côté]

On the one hand, with regard to the way in which the Canadian armed forces go about education and training, it is not really up to me to decide whether an institution or a school should be located in this place and not in that place. This is up to ministers, high-ranking officers and officials. They must deal with these issues and find the best solutions that suit the circumstances.

On the other hand, as ombudsman, I am looking at the way in which the Canadian Forces are scattered all over the country. When I see the things that are happening at Borden, for instance, I think that it is possible, even there at this time, to take measures to improve the situation.

Regarding optimism or pessimism, I am still confident that if the right directives are given and properly followed, things can change for the better.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Here is how I see the problem. We are responsible for adopting legislation. They are about to table legislation regarding young offenders. Once the laws are adopted, whether you like or not, either you'll stay on the straight path or you'll go to jail. As for us, we adopted an Official Languages Act including part VII and sections 41, 42 and 43. All of this is Canadian law. Nevertheless, those who are in charge of defending our country do not even abide by its laws! This is why I am pessimistic. We send people abroad to impose law and order, but they are not even able to abide by Canada's Official Languages Act. In this sense, National Defence has the worst reputation of any institution in this land.

[Yves Côté]

Let me repeat that we worked in close collaboration with the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages, whose mandate is more specifically directed to the issues that we are debating here this morning.

As I said, I think that he announced his intention to do a review on the education and training system in the Canadian Forces. I presume that he could approach this review in a perspective that is wider than ours.

As for me, I will certainly continue working in close collaboration with Mr. Fraser and exchanging notes with him regarding the advancement of this file. I hope that by working together, we will be able to ensure that unilingual francophones in Borden, more specifically, will be treated in a more open, generous and welcoming manner.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Côté. Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Let us now continue with Mr. Harvey, from the government side.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

First, Mr. Côté, I thank you for being here. The chief priority of your mission probably does not consist in detecting the problems encountered by certain francophone soldiers in training centres like the one at Borden. I thank you for being our eyes and our ears, and for informing us today about this important matter.

Certain measures were taken, such as reopening the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean. In any case, when the government closes down a francophone college, it has its responsibilities. The military people are not the only ones who are responsible for this. I think that the reopening of the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean was a step in the right direction. Nevertheless, we realized that there is more work to be done and that it will take time.

As I want to hear you out, I would like you to tell me your opinion about the other priority measures that we should take to improve the training and the other services provided in French for the francophone students at Borden college.

[Yves Côté]

I think that this committee should continue being as open as you were this morning by inviting us to discuss the issue. I believe that this is part of an investigation and that other witnesses will be called, including Mr. Fraser next week. We must keep up our efforts and send a specific message to the Canadian armed forces to tell them that every recruit and every student, be he or she francophone or anglophone, has the same basic rights and must be welcomed with equal respect. We must do this.

As I said earlier, the ombudsman's office will certainly continue to follow the advancement of this file—I hope that it will develop in a real and concrete way—over the coming weeks and months. Personally, as I said, I intend to work closely with Mr. Fraser, the Commissioner of Official Languages, to put our efforts and our energy together and make the current situation become a thing of the past.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Côté, you said that you would do another investigation in early 2008. If my colleagues agree, at the end of this meeting, we could adopt a motion to invite you back to present that report to us for discussion.

Thus, you might have an opportunity to tell the authorities at Borden that you will have to report on this file to the Standing Committee on Official Languages as soon as you have made some progress.

Do you think that this would be a good tool in your hands?

[Yves Côté]

Mr. Chairman, I am at the service of Parliament and the parliamentary committees. If at any time this committee wants me to come back and report on the progress of the files and on our observations on the ground, I will always feel glad, privileged and honoured to do so.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

We must set priorities and take measures to make sure that things improve at Borden college, but apart from the follow-up that we discussed, can we do anything else to make sure that the francophones who are studying at this college or at the military colleges as a whole in Canada receive services in their language?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Mr. Côté.

[Yves Côté]

By raising the profile of this issue, by welcoming us here and by perhaps inviting other witnesses eventually, you have already taken some important measures. This will show the people who are in charge of Borden and perhaps those who are here on behalf of military leadership, that this committee is taking this matter very seriously. I think that this will really help us to improve conditions for students in the field. Besides, I presume that you will be hearing other witnesses who will probably help you to define other subjects that should be looked into and other measures that should be taken.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Chairman, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You have a minute and a half.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

You said that some francophone soldiers had left the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean in order to finish their training in certain subjects at Borden. Am I right?

[Yves Côté]

Not exactly, Mr. Chairman.

When the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean was closed, the students who would have normally studied there ended up in Kingston at the Royal Military College of Canada. At Borden, there are schools that are different from the military college itself. They train people to become cooks, clerks, drivers, mechanics and so forth. There is also an avionics school. This is not directly related to the closing down of the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean.