Evidence of meeting #3 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chairman.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Has there ever been a study on the translation of documents published by National Defence, such as documents published on the Internet, or is that rather a matter for the Commissioner of Official Languages?
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
We have not looked at that, but in my opinion, that is a matter for the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages, because the well-being and fair treatment of Canadian Forces members might have less to do with language issues than with training at CFB Borden.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
Thank you, Mr. Godin.
We will now begin the fourth round. I would like to ask members who are carrying on conversations amongst themselves to please leave the room so we can hear the witnesses.
We will continue with Mr. Rodriguez from the Liberal Party.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Mr. Chairman, I will share my time with Mr. D'Amours.
Good morning, Mr. Côté and Ms. Brandon.
Mr. Côté, in your report, you say that the issues raised also include encouraging people to switch jobs when documents in French are not available. In other words, careers are managed based on which textbooks are available.
Is it fair to say that?
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Mr. Chairman, we certainly heard that type of comment. Some francophone recruits and students, who are particularly ambitious and who wanted their careers to progress, were told that courses they wanted to take, such as logistics or administration, would only be available to them in several months' time, but that if they wanted to switch jobs, courses would be more readily available to them.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
In other words, a person who has a dream, who wants to achieve things, would be told that the dream was out of reach because the textbooks are not available in that person's language, so they should think of doing something else.
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Training and progress in vocational development, in certain cases for anglophones as well, are delayed because the courses in their language are not available yet.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
You also said that francophone recruits risked being ostracized if they dared request services in French. Do you have any examples of when they were treated poorly or had other problems?
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Some people, for example, have told us that they had to get used to speaking English because French was the language of the minority, and they could go back as soon as they were prepared to speak English.
That comes back to what I was saying earlier: 85% of recruits who responded to our questionnaire said they did not know where to turn for help, and 81% of them believed that there was no help available. We heard regularly about incidents where francophones tried to speak French, and were told that it wasn't the thing to do, and that they had to learn to speak English.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
What happens when recruits arrive? Are they given some idea of how things work? Do they expect problems? Do they understand that they won't be able to function in their own language because they will not have access to the same services and that they will not have equal rights?
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Mr. Chairman, it is very difficult to answer that question in general terms. However, I think that a significant percentage of French-speaking recruits who arrive at Borden find that the language situation is not necessarily what they expected. In fact, it probably comes as a surprise to many of them.
Liberal
Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you, dear colleague.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Côté, when we hear comments to the effect that we have obligations to NATO and Afghanistan, to National Defence Headquarters, and so on, I think those are nothing more than excuses. I think it's cheap to come up with excuses as to why we cannot give francophones the chance to receive services in their own language.
This means that, for the rest of their lives, francophones will have to live with excuses—that is what the government side seems to be saying. They seem to be saying that because people live in a certain place, pursue a certain career or wish to go somewhere else, they will not have access to services in French, unfortunate though it is.
It is very cheap for the government to even dare say such things. It is as if francophones were less than nothing, and, given what will end up happening at National Defence, francophones will stop having access to services in French.
Don't you find that cheap too?
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Mr. Chairman, when I was studying law, I was taught about leading questions.
I would like to come back to what I have told you several times this morning already. The situation at Borden is deplorable, regrettable, and in many cases unacceptable.
Liberal
Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
That does in fact give me something approaching an answer. I think that gives me what I need.
There was one last point I wanted to make. We are talking about bilingualism and so on. Earlier, some members on the government side said that there was a new policy in place. Mr. Côté, in your opinion, does the fact that some senior National Defence officials will no longer have to be bilingual not send the wrong message to the rest of them? The government says that it will no longer force senior officials to be bilingual, and thus we cannot expect those less senior to necessarily receive the bilingual services to which they are entitled.
Conservative
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Mr. Chairman, from a technical standpoint, I cannot answer the member's question. If I understand correctly, you will be hearing the Official Languages Commissioner in a week. He will certainly be able to tell you his views on that point. Once again, I will reiterate that the situation we saw in Borden should not be what it is.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
Thank you.
We will now go to the government side. Mr. Daniel Petit.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Côté. Please tell your mother to vote for me, since she lives in my riding.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
I would like to begin with a rather more delicate subject. I'll start by prefacing my remarks with a short introduction so that I am clearly understood. I am a new member of this Parliament. Half of CFB Valcartier is located in my riding, so I have been well aware of what goes on in the Canadian Forces, even before situations like the one under discussion today arose.
In some newspapers—for example, in Quebec's Le Soleil—we read that when the Liberals were in power—we were not there previously—there was no equipment, no men and no money. Journalists wrote that the submarines the government purchased were rusted, that helicopters were falling out of the sky, that equipment was painted green for use in the desert, that there were not enough weapons, and that there was not enough support in terms of equipment.
You are the ombudsman, and you are responsible for two major portfolios: the issue of language, and people who come back with post-traumatic stress syndrome. You have to take action, and goodness knows it is a delicate issue. We hear about it in our region all the time. We talk about language, but there is also a problem with underfunding and underrepresentation. The army has been treated like garbage for almost 13 years, and now, you are being asked about what you've done about language and what's going on with language.
I come from a French-speaking province. They teach mechanics at Borden, as the students they teach are not necessarily officer cadets. At Borden they teach mechanics, they teach trades. In my riding, in schools that teach mechanics, we talk about something that in French we call the raban de ferlage. Do you know what that is? In English, it's a "crankshaft". If you ask someone in French to repair a pare-brise, the mechanics will not understand. If you ask them in French to repair the "windshield," they will understand. If you use the English word "muffler", they will understand what you mean. But if you call it by its French name, if you call it a tuyau d'échappement,... What's the problem?
We French speakers, have a problem with our language. There is something I would like to know. You have studied the problem at Borden. That is an extremely anglophone environment, and the government has an institution that is supposed to be bilingual. At one point, you wrote the following to General Hillier—is he Chief of Defence Staff? Allow me to quote you:
I was pleased that we were able to reach an agreement on these short-term measures. I was also pleased to learn that there now seems to be some concrete action taking place.
What prompted you to write that? Did you see some measures with your own eyes? I would like you to be somewhat more explicit.
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Mr. Chairman, could the member please tell me the date of that letter?
Conservative
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Mr. Chairman, here is what happened.
In July, I met with Mr. O'Connor, the then Minister of Defence, as well as with the Chief of Defence Staff, the same gentleman who is in the position today. The minister set out his expectations very clearly, and put into effect the very concrete recommendations I made. Subsequently, things seemed to be happening. As I said, two senior officials—two majors-general—went to Borden to talk about the issue and speak to the troops. Thus, we agreed that a report on the current situation would be submitted on December 1.
As a result of the commitments made at the time, I was rather optimistic, something that you will see reflected in the letter. But I would remind the member once again that last week's interview leads me to believe that, for every step forward, we have perhaps taken a half-step back.
There is something I would like to add. The member said that we work on two issues. For the record, I would simply point out that we do in fact work on a very large number of issues, including post-traumatic stress disorder, assistance to families, and many others.
There is one last point I would like to make to the member: my conversations with my mother are highly confidential.