Official Languages Committee on Nov. 20th, 2007

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thus, there was no such thing as a first stage of training at Saint-Jean later completed at Borden. This is really something very specific to Borden college.

[Yves Côté]

Yes and no, Mr. Chairman.

All recruits who enlist in the Canadian Forces must go through basic training whether or not they are officers. All the recruits from Canada follow this course at Saint-Jean. It can take about 13 to 17 weeks. Once they have finished this course, these people can go either to Borden, or to Gagetown or to Halifax. This is how things are usually done. In this sense, it is accurate to say that everyone goes to Saint-Jean before going to Borden, but as I said earlier, the closing of the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean is not directly related to the turnover of students at Borden.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

We are not talking about a closing down but about a reopening.

[Yves Côté]

The question was about the closing of a college, and that is how I answered it. Of course, they announced that the college would be reopened.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Let us now begin a second round table with Mr. Jean-Claude D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Côté and Ms. Brandon, thank you for appearing before us this morning.

I am very worried about the issue that you raised during your presentation. I would like to look at it from a very specific point of view. Let me give you some background. A few months ago, the former Minister of National Defence appeared before the committee to discuss certain files. It had to do with not requiring that high-ranking officers become bilingual. In other words, they would be allowed to remain as unilingual anglophones, and the francophones would agree to it.

During that meeting, I put a question to the minister, who, I imagine, was using interpretation. I asked him to answer me in French, but he was not able to do that. I then pointed out to him that if I were a francophone soldier who does not understand English and that if this person gave me orders in English on the battlefield, I would be in bad shape. My quality of life, my health and my safety could be in jeopardy. It would be a serious problem.

Mr. Ombudsman, if these students cannot understand English—and they are not obliged to do so—do you think that this situation is bad for their training, their safety, and, if they need medical care, for their health? They may not even be in a position to receive the services that they are entitled to. The federal government of this country is boasting that it is bilingual, but those are just empty words. In fact, when it comes down to the crunch, it does the opposite of what it says it is doing. Do you think that this is fair to francophone soldiers or would-be soldiers?

[Yves Côté]

Clearly, the people who spoke to us had been affected in a number of ways. The member mentioned some examples having to do with training. As I said earlier, they're asked to do their homework in a language they do not understand. So they do what they can. One individual told me that he did what he could, but it happened regularly that he had not really understood and only realized that later. The work submitted was not what was expected, and the teachers wondered why he had not understood.

Another very important point is that classes in French are offered much less regularly at Borden. It often happens that francophone recruits have to wait a number of months to have access to a course they need in order to advance. Anglophones are offered these courses much more often. As a result, they can advance much more quickly.

The member raised the issue of health care, and I did talk about the hospital. The situation is the same as regards dentists. One of the recruits also told us that when she wanted to sell her house, the services were provided by anglophones only. And the recruit in question did not speak English.

The same sort of problem happens in the case of reception services. I spoke to the people who work there—the first person you see, in other words. Some individuals told us that when they came to Borden for the first time, the person they dealt with did not speak French at all. Imagine how "welcomed" people feel in that case.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I do not know how much time I have left, but I am going to raise a point, and I would like you to give a yes or no answer, Mr. Côté. I listened to what you have had to say, and in my opinion, there is clearly a flagrant lack of respect for francophones in this country—both in Quebec and outside Quebec. Would you agree?

[Yves Côté]

Mr. Chairman, the treatment received by the francophone recruits we spoke to is deplorable. It is unfortunate and such things should not happen in a country like ours. As I said in my correspondence with the Chief of the Defence Staff, I am expecting this situation to change, so that all recruits in the Canadian armed forces feel comfortable and welcomed, regardless of their first language and their abilities in the other language. What we saw in Borden is not at all what we should aspire to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Côté.

We will now go to Mr. Claude Bachand, who is also a member of the Standing Committee on National Defence.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I'm originally from Saint-Jean, Mr. Chairman. I want to take this opportunity to assure my colleagues that at the Saint-Jean military base, there is no problem. In fact the opposite occurs, since there are starting to be complaints that English is spoke too widely at the Saint-Jean military base. Imagine the day where there's too much French spoken at the Borden base, and we will have solved the essential problem.

With regard to the military college, we also have to consider how the French fact is viewed in the army. Initially, there was a closure. Now, everyone is bragging about the reopening, but I want to remind my colleagues that this reopening is only partial. Previously, Saint-Jean had university status; now it has college-level status. Its university status must be restored. The prestigious past of this military college must be acknowledged. That will be a signal in favour of the French fact.

I also want to remind you that there's a language school in Saint-Jean, precisely for new recruits. Before the new bilingualism policy, once the recruits had completed their 13 weeks, as you said earlier, they spent about 20 weeks learning the basics of their second language before they went on to their area of specialization. That has ended since the new bilingualism policy came into effect. The department decided to create anglophone units, francophone units and bilingual units. As a matter of fact, I recently asked the minister's office if it could give us a list of these units. That hasn't even been done yet. So there are problems.

Mr. Côté, I've always admired the way you handle your file, but I would like you to indicate to us the legal scope of the ombudsman's intervention compared to the legal scope of the possible intervention by the Commissioner of Official Languages. In your opinion, do you both have a mandate to intervene in the consideration of this issue?

[Yves Côté]

Given the ministerial directives which are at the origin of the creation of the office and which indicate what we should do and how we should do it, up to a point, it's absolutely clear in my mind that we have a mandate to examine these issues. The ministerial directives specifically mention that we must address issues regarding the fair and equitable treatment of members of the Canadian armed forces. So when we see how these people, like those we met in Borden, are treated, it's very clear to me that justice and equity are called into question in a very fundamental way. For my part, I have no doubt whatsoever that we have an important role to play.

Before I talk about the Commissioner of Official Languages, I would add that I am only an ombudsman. An ombudsman—and this is true of all ombudsmen I'm aware of, including the Protecteur du citoyen in Quebec—has no executive power. We can issue recommendations, which I did in my correspondence, and as I do regularly, we can ensure follow-up and if need be, make files and issues public if it's necessary for people on the outside to exert pressure so that things get moving. This has to be stated. That's our mandate, and that's how we fulfil it.

Now with regard to the Commissioner of Official Languages, it goes without saying that he is responsible for enforcing the Official Languages Act and conducting studies and appropriate audits to see what progress has been made by various institutions, including National Defence and the Canadian armed forces, and then for issuing the type of report and taking the type of measures allowed under the Official Languages Act.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

A little earlier, you referred to a commander or a high-ranking officer who seemed to be calling everything into question. I don't image you get ulcers because of this, since you don't report to the chain of command, you report directly to the department. Right now, is Mr. MacKay aware of the problem at Borden?

Moreover, normally your investigators deal with different files informally, at the lowest possible level to begin with. Did you operate that way? I get the impression that you went higher up quite quickly.

[Yves Côté]

I'd like to make two comments here. First of all a point of clarification, Mr. Chairman. Technically, I don't report to the Department of National Defence, but rather to the minister. I was appointed by the governor in council. Yes, I report to the minister, and I mentioned that. Perhaps it's worthwhile to point it out again. When I raised the question in the presence of the former minister, Mr. O'Connor, in late July, I saw his reaction. I was there when he issued directives, orders and instructions to the military. It was quite clear that he wanted things to change, and they did change.

Now with respect to Mr. MacKay, Ms. Brandon and I met with him in late September and we discussed a number of files, including this one. I mentioned to him how important this one was. I can tell you that the minister stated that he's extremely interested in this situation. I promised him that I'd keep him informed of developments as things progressed.

The last point I'd like to underscore, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that we did start at the lowest level, in one sense. When I left the Borden base in November, I went to see the commander in his office, in the presence of his chief warrant officer, who is the highest ranking non-commissioned officer, and I told him that they had a serious problem and that I was certainly going to follow up on this issue, because according to what I'd heard, the way francophones were treated left a great deal to be desired. They were seized with this question immediately and that's why I wrote to the Chief of the Defence Staff about a month later. Given the importance and the seriousness of the issue, I felt it was appropriate to inform him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Côté.

We will move on. Mr. Godin, it's your turn.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You said a little earlier that you had an article that you could give our clerk. I would like this article to be sent to our clerk. I would like the House to have this article translated.

[Yves Côté]

Mr. Chairman, that's what we want to do. We have copies here that we can give the clerk.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

If you wish, Mr. Côté.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I said: "to the clerk".

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

I'm sorry, Mr. Godin.

Mr. Ombudsman, I simply wanted to remind you that we will read it and that we will have it translated before distributing it to members of the committee. That is a rule in our committee as it is in all other committees.

[Yves Côté]

Given that this is the Committee on Official Languages, we will not contest that.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

They don't speak both official languages at reception. Respect for both official languages is a long-standing story. Even at reception, they're not bilingual.

Are the trade instructors bilingual?

[Yves Côté]

Some members of the teaching staff can work in both languages.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Are there any who don't speak both languages?

[Yves Côté]

According to what we were told, in some cases, that's what happens. Sometimes these people are spoken to only in English.