Official Languages Committee on Nov. 20th, 2007

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

In a plant where mechanics is being taught, for example, does a translator accompany the instructor?

[Yves Côté]

I do not believe that a translator accompanies the instructor. If so, it must be the exception rather than the rule. Honestly, I cannot answer that question.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Could that be part of your study? This goes further than simply saying that the manual is not available in both languages. It is the system that is not providing training in both official languages to the two different groups in our country, as stipulated by the Official Languages Act.

[Yves Côté]

I agree, but I want to add something that I did not mention this morning. We are told that, sometimes, even when the documents are translated—in 95% of the cases it is from English to French—the translation quality is quite poor, even when students take their exams. They are given questionnaires in French that—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I have said that National Defence is the worst place, but there are other places where things are not going very well either. Take the example of nurse practitioners. Only one out of five students passes the course. But when five anglophones took the same course, they all passed. Does that mean that francophones are not very intelligent? The English-to-French translation of the course is terrible, and the questions do not even relate to the course.

I used that example because the same situation could arise at National Defence. So you should make recommendations to make sure that there is light at the end of the tunnel, or we will need two institutions.

[Yves Côté]

I'm eager to see the extent to which our recommendations have been implemented. One of them was to create an effective complaint mechanism that would be known and easily accessible to recruits. Recruits in the Canadian Forces are really at the bottom of the hierarchy, and they have to deal with the chain of command that can be very daunting. They could use that kind of mechanism without worrying that they will be told that Côté is at it again with his complaints.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I think that it goes further than that. For example, a soldier who is learning to be a mechanic might ask his instructor if he wants the windshield changed and might be told: "I don't speak French." It is all well and good to create a mechanism, but the machine is broken. How can they go to Borden and say that instructors who are not bilingual have to leave? That can't be done. I am not criticizing you personally, but rather National Defence. The problem can't be solved unless the problem is really addressed. It doesn't matter what kind of complaint mechanism is brought in: the problem remains that the person at reception and some of the instructors do not speak both languages.

Do you agree with me? I would like you to answer yes or no.

[Yves Côté]

I cannot answer yes or no. The points that you are raising are extremely valid.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You have used up all of your time, Mr. Godin.

We will now go back to the government side with the Honourable Michael Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Côté, I want to thank you for your testimony, and I am pleased to meet you.

I have a point to make and then maybe you could provide comments to it.

I think one of the big backdrops, one of the big things that need to be acknowledged, is that the Canadian Forces are very stretched right now. We have a mission in Afghanistan that is taking up a lot of the operational strength of the forces. I was reading through the binder that was provided. Specifically I was reading through comments that Major-General Daniel Gosselin, who is chief of military personnel, had made to the Canadian Forces Base Borden in August of this year.

With respect to the issues around the forces being stretched because of our mission in Afghanistan, he says:You will also appreciate that due to the operational tempo, there is a significant demand for bilingual military personnel to work in headquarters and support services overseas. This limits the number of service members who can be assigned to the schools and CFB Borden.

I would also point out that the other broad background to this problem at Canadian Forces Base Borden you've rightly pointed out is the fact that in the 1990s the military went through significant cutbacks, which is the real foundational reason as to why they are struggling to provide services in both official languages. I once again quote the Major-General who says:

You should be aware that delays in the delivery of training are not primarily a language issue. ... This overall backlog is a result of greatly expanded recruiting for the Canadian Forces, as a result of force expansion, without a comparable increase in training capacity. We have suffered significant downsizing in the mid 1990s and never recovered in terms of school staff.

So I think there are two contextual facts that we have to acknowledge. One is that the military went through significant downsizing in the 1990s, which it is yet to recover from. It's in the midst of a massive expansion right now. There will be some problems that come along with that expansion, as we rebuild the forces.

I think the second contextual fact is that we are engaged in one of the most significant combat operations overseas since the Korean War. This too has stretched the ability of the forces to quickly address some of the problems at Canadian Forces Base Borden. I think those two pieces of information--the fact that we had these significant cutbacks and that we are engaged in a major theatre of action overseas--need to be acknowledged as part of this debate.

That being said, I think you've done some very good work here in championing the rights of linguistic minorities in places like Borden. Maybe you could provide comment on the challenges that the forces have with respect to trying to rebuild some of that capacity as we undertake an era of expansion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You have approximately one minute, Mr. Côté.

[Yves Côté]

Mr. Chair, the two elements of contextual background that the member has put on the table are very real. In fact in my last annual report I did mention that one of the things I see across the forces is how stretched the organization is, how many people we see that are not only double tasked but often triple tasked, and all the cost that not only members themselves but also family members have to pay or support as a result of this. This is only part of the reality that the CF is facing now as an institution that is, as we just said, very stretched. At the same time the problems as we saw them in Borden are serious problems. The question for the leadership will be how they decide to address them, keeping in mind of course the context in which they operate, but also the seriousness of the problem as it exists in Borden.

If I may, Mr. Chair, I will just make a very small comment. Major-General Gosselin is not the CMP. He is not the chief of military personnel. He is the new commander of the defence academy. The chief of military personnel is Major-General Semianiw.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much for that clarification, Mr. Côté.

We will now have a third round of questions. I have to apologize, since I should have had the government go second last time and I did not do so. I will continue with the usual order. The order for the third round is as follows: first the Liberal Party, followed by the Bloc Québécois, the Conservative Party and then the New Democratic Party. We will start on the Liberal side with the Honourable Mauril Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Let us try to get down to brass tacks, Mr. Côté.

I want to start with a comment. I agree with my colleague, Mr. Godin, about the complaint system. When there is a complaint system, I feel like a second-class citizen, since francophones in this country all too often have to complain in order to have their rights respected. I do understand that these things are happening in a certain context, but the Official Languages Act was passed in 1969. Do we need to go back to 1969 to find excuses for National Defence? Do we need to go back to 1969 to explain the lack of respect that the Canadian Forces have shown francophones in Canada? It is unfortunately true, and I have had personal experience with this, having had responsibility for this file when I was associate minister. We talked about this issue at that time, Mr. Côté.

As you know, this attitude is reflected even in the expression "vandooze." I think it shows a lack of respect when people say "vandooze," knowing full well that they are talking about the Royal 22^nd Regiment. It is like saying "Big Joe Mufferaw" instead of Joe Montferrand. There is also a question of culture and respect, which seems not to stick very well in the minds of officers and chiefs of defence staff, either present or past. That was my comment.

Who has primary responsibility for this issue? Is it the base commander who really has the power to decide to do things better? Do we need to go further up the chain of command? Is it the responsibility of the Chief of Defence Staff?

[Yves Côté]

Mr. Chairman, I am not necessarily the best person to answer that question. People in uniform would be much better placed to do that. From what I have understood, the Borden base is part of a hierarchy and comes directly under the command of the Canadian Defence Academy in Kingston, which reports to the Chief of Defence Staff. Given the scope and severity of the problem, it seems to me that leadership should not be limited to the local level, to the base, but should also involve people who are higher in the chain of command.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Harvey may be moving a motion later to have you come back here. I agree, but I think that it would be appropriate as well to bring to the committee the person or persons who are responsible for administering the Borden base in order to make sure that the Official Languages Act, like all the laws of Canada, is complied with. I would really like to know who we need to hear from in the chain of command. I do not necessarily intend to call in the Chief of Defence Staff: he cannot be responsible for everything. At the end of the day, yes, he is accountable for everything, but there have to be people advising him. There must be some kind of delegation of authority.

Who is it?

[Yves Côté]

The problem, Mr. Chairman, is that the highest superior officer responsible for official languages in the Canadian armed forces is the Chief of Defence Staff, who, once again, is responsible for the academy in Kingston and the Borden base.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

That is the person who answered you on March 30 or April 1. Is that right?

[Yves Côté]

It has changed since then. There are new people, and General Semianiw is now the Chief of Military Staff.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Côté.

Another thing. You are expecting a report for December 1.

[Yves Côté]

Yes. We asked that these people report back to us on the situation and progress at Borden on these issues. We are expecting the report at the very beginning of December, December 1.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

There is one thing I would like to request, which might not require your appearing before us again. The committee will determine that a little later. Could you send us a copy of the report and your comments on it?

[Yves Côté]

Mr. Chairman, if possible, I would prefer that we do our follow-up work once we receive the report. We intend to work very diligently on that. Then we would forward the report to the committee along with our audit. That is how we would like to proceed. That would certainly be my preference.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I must say that I would like to see the report at some point, but some time sooner than in two years, if possible.

I have a final question for you. Why did you hold a press conference in November?

[Yves Côté]

That is one of the ways I make my reports public. In almost every case involving an important systemic issue—such as the snipers, recruitment, or the Wenzel case—we invite the media to come and hear what we have to say. We did that two weeks ago on this issue, and there was some interest in it.