Official Languages Committee on April 30th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Good morning, and welcome to the 17th meeting of our Standing Committee on Official Languages. Today we continue our study on postsecondary institutions and their efforts in promoting bilingualism in Canada pursuant to the federal government's support regulations and Standing Order 108.

We are pleased to have representatives from universities across the country that provide training in one or both official languages. Your work is central to our study, and we thank you for accepting our invitation.

So we'll begin with the place where all the spotlights will be focused next year as part of the Olympic Games. From Simon Fraser University, in Vancouver, we are pleased to welcome Ms. Claire Trépanier, Acting Director of the Office of Francophone and Francophile Affairs, accompanied by Danielle Arcand, Associate Director of that same office.

And before handing over to them, I'm going to introduce our other guests to you.

From Acadia University, Ms. Janice Best, Director, Department of Languages and Literatures. Welcome. She is accompanied by Robert Perrins, Dean of that institution's Faculty of Arts. Welcome to you as well.

We also have Mr. Donald Ipperciel, Assistant Dean, Research at the Saint-Jean Campus. Welcome to the committee, Mr. Ipperciel. And, lastly, we have Mr. Dan Maher, from the University of Calgary.

He's the acting dean of the faculty of humanities. And we also have Mr. Ozouf Amedegnato, who is assistant professor, Department of French, Italian and Spanish.

Thank you for appearing before the committee this morning.

Without further ado, we'll start with our representatives from Simon Fraser University.

[Claire Trépanier, Acting Director, Office of Francophone and Francophile Affairs, Simon Fraser University]

Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen members, thank you for inviting Simon Fraser University and its Office of Francophone and Francophile Affairs to speak before the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

My name is Claire Trépanier, and I am Acting Director of the Office of Francophone and Francophile Affairs, which we also call OFFA. I am here with my colleague Danielle Arcand, Associate Director of OFFA, and we will be sharing the presentation today. I apologize for my hasty departure; I'll have to leave at 10 o'clock. Thank you for your understanding.

The study on the federal government's support for postsecondary institutions and their efforts in promoting bilingualism in Canada is of considerable interest to Simon Fraser University. There is a genuine attraction to the French language in British Columbia: the use of French is on the rise not only among young people, but also in the general population.

Simon Fraser University is concerned about Canada's linguistic duality and is proud to make a contribution to bilingualism and to the development of the francophone minority community. I'll now hand over to my colleague Danielle Arcand.

[Danielle Arcand, Associate Director, Office of Francophone and Francophile Affairs, Simon Fraser University]

Merci, Claire.

Today we would like to answer the questions put to us by this committee concerning, first, specific programs at SFU in support of official languages; second, about possible initiatives post-secondary institutions could take; and third, the role of the federal government in support of post-secondary institutions.

First, let me inform you that Simon Fraser University has received funding under the Canada-B.C. auxiliary agreement for the development of post-secondary education in French at SFU, an initial five-year funding from 2003 to 2008, followed by a one-year extension for 2008-09.

The initial funding allowed the establishment of the Office of Francophone and Francophile Affairs, otherwise known as OFFA. OFFA's mandate is to develop and coordinate programs and courses taught in French at SFU, as well as to promote the programs in B.C., in Canada, and internationally. OFFA has an original administrative structure rarely seen in a university setting. OFFA works with two faculties, the faculty of education and the faculty of arts and social sciences, and answers directly to the Office of the Associate Vice-President, Academic. OFFA's mission also includes reinforcing the ties to B.C.'s francophone and francophile communities.

OFFA came into being thanks to the mobilization and cooperation of a number of community, university, and government stakeholders interested in achieving the common goal of fostering access to post-secondary education in French in B.C.

Two B.C. community groups are worth mentioning for their relentless work and contribution: the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie Britannique and the B.C. and Yukon branch of the Association of Canadian Parents for French.

Across Canada, as we know, there is a shortage of teachers of French. B.C. is particularly in need because of the increasing demand from parents who wish to put their kids in French immersion programs. More than 42,000 students are in French immersion across the province. There are 1,472 new students this year, representing a growth for the eleventh straight year in B.C. As you may have heard in the media, some parents camp overnight, or are being asked to use a lottery system, to register their child in French immersion in B.C.

There is also an increasing number of francophone children in the province, more than 4,200, attending the 40 francophone schools of the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique. Enrolment projections confirm that Conseil scolaire francophone experiences the fastest growth in all of B.C. school boards.

Since 2003, with the help of the funding received from the federal government, the faculty of education at SFU has expanded its programs and developed new programs to provide initial and continuous training to teachers of French. For example, in initial teacher education the number of places has doubled. In addition to the masters of education offered in French at SFU already, a new masters of education program is now accessible online for teachers throughout the province and beyond.

SFU is a member of the MedOuest Consortium, Le Consortium des établissements universitaires de I'Ouest canadien, which includes I'Institut français de I'Université de Regina, Ie College universitaire de St-Boniface, et Ie Campus St-Jean de I'Université de I'Alberta. As a member, SFU shares online M.Ed. courses with these institutions.

In 2007 another initiative was put in place by the faculty of education. A doctoral program in educational leadership was developed and is taught entirely in French. School administrators, teachers, community leaders, and civil servants are currently registered in this doctoral program.

Let me end by saying that students graduating from the various programs in education have great employment opportunities because of the demand in French immersion and core French programs, as well as in the francophone program.

The faculty of education at SFU is committed to continue its support to the development of official-language minority communities, as well as the learning of French as a second language.

I will now turn it over to my colleague.

Thank you.

[Claire Trépanier]

Thank you, Danielle.

Ladies and gentlemen, in its study, your committee is focusing in particular on the manner in which the universities can train bilingual graduates so that the federal public service can respond to citizens in their mother tongue.

I am pleased to inform you that, thanks to the financial support of the Department of Canadian Heritage, which is responsible for official languages, the Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences is offering a program that specifically addresses the federal government's expectations. It concerns not only a succession for the public service, but, even better, a succession that possesses a very good mastery of Canada's two official languages.

Since 2004, Simon Fraser University has offered a program in public administration and community services, which we also call the French Cohort Program. This is a multi-disciplinary program, unique to Canada, mainly offered in French to young graduates of the French immersion and core French programs and of the francophone program of British Columbia.

The French Cohort Program has a curriculum that includes courses in political science, public administration, history, economics and international studies, to name only a few. It is thus preparing these young citizens who master both official languages to join the public service.

The initiatives that we have put forward to encourage our students to achieve excellent proficiency in French and to understand the communities in which French is used are numerous and original.

Allow me to cite two examples. In the French Cohort Program, after two years of postsecondary studies in British Columbia—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Ms. Trépanier, you have two minutes left.

[Claire Trépanier]

—students take part in an exchange program. Simon Fraser University has established partnerships with francophone institutions in Quebec, France and Belgium. Based on the model of the European student mobility program Erasmus, third-year students have the opportunity to study in various cities. On those exchanges, Simon Fraser University affords young Canadians and French-speaking Europeans the opportunity to develop their English-language proficiency and to discover western Canada.

In those courses, we establish ties with the communities. The students, in cooperation with the various organizations and associations, develop research and analysis programs. These projects enable them not only to gain a greater understanding of the minority francophone community, but also to contribute to that community through recommendations that they make in their various study reports.

How much do I have left?

[An hon. member]

A page.

[Claire Trépanier]

A page? Oh no!

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

That's fine. You can continue.

[Claire Trépanier]

We were told we had a maximum of eight to 10 minutes.

In 2008, Simon Fraser University produced its first bilingual graduates. Prospects for those young people are enormous. Some have opted for French-language teaching positions, others have been recruited by the federal public service in bilingual positions. Still others have already chosen to pursue postsecondary studies in bilingual masters programs.

The federal government was right, in 2003, to invest in French second language and French minority language programs in British Columbia and must continue its investment because demand is growing. When we enter the province's schools, we ask students why they enrolled in an immersion program. The answer we most often get is, “because Canada is bilingual.”

Simon Fraser University wants to expand its supply of programs for the youth of British Columbia who have invested all those years in learning French. It proposes to establish another original program entitled French as a C.O.O.L. Option, C.O.O.L. meaning Curriculum in the Other Official Language. This initiative would target students enrolling in a variety of academic programs and wishing to continue improving their French-language proficiency.

We have outlined a few initiatives that have been put in place in a short period of time and which are now real successes in British Columbia. It goes without saying that ongoing and increased financial support from the federal government would make it possible not only to maintain, but also to enrich postsecondary programs in British Columbia. We also propose that financial support paid to Canadian students wishing to continue studying in bilingual programs be expanded. Simon Fraser University would be pleased to welcome students taking part in a bilingual pan-Canadian mobility program. Imagine students from the Maritimes, from the east and the rest of Canada coming to study in British Columbia in both official languages.

In conclusion, Simon Fraser University is proud to have developed the first French-language postsecondary education programs in British Columbia. It is thus becoming the most western university in Canada, in the network of university institutions, to contribute to the expansion of Canada's linguistic duality.

We thank you for your attention and we'll be pleased to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Ms. Arcand and Ms. Trépanier, thank you for that very cool presentation.

We'll now continue with our representatives from Acadia University.

[Janice Best, Director, Departement of Languages and Literatures, Acadia University]

I'll start by thanking you for inviting us and affording us the opportunity to present our programs. I'll begin because I'm afraid my text is a little too long.

Acadia University's Department of Languages and Literatures offers programs in French as a second language and courses specifically intended to develop the Acadian community, which is a minority community in Nova Scotia. Most of our students are anglophones who come from immersion programs, early or late, or who come from core French programs. We also take in students whose first language is French, Acadians in particular, who also take courses in French at a higher level.

We offer grammar courses at all levels, elementary, intermediate and advanced. We also offer courses in literature, culture, translation, French second language methodology and socio-linguistics courses. As regards courses that could contribute to the development of the minority communities, I would like to mention in particular our courses on Acadian literature and culture, which are intended for Acadian students and anyone else. These are courses that have attracted a lot of interest.

A second language isn't just learned in the classroom; you have to live in the language you want to learn. We try to organize as many cultural activities as possible, which are open to all members of the community. Whether they be anglophone, francophone or Acadian, anyone can come and take part in our cultural activities.

The two biggest challenges facing the postsecondary institutions are the lack of qualified teaching staff in the primary and secondary schools, and the lack of rigour in the way that grammar, spelling and syntax are taught in both the immersion programs and in the French-language schools. The French taught is too often an approximate French, patterned on English, whether it be in the anglophone schools that have immersion programs or in the francophone schools of our region.

This situation is a particular concern for the Acadian population living in Nova Scotia as a minority in an anglophone majority province. Paradoxically, many anglophone students who come from immersion programs face the same challenges. When these students arrive at the university, their language errors are set and difficult and, in some cases, indeed even impossible to correct.

Like many universities, we have recently introduced new courses specifically designed for these students, who generally speak with ease, but often make a lot of mistakes by patterning their speech on English or using anglicisms. The purpose of these new courses is to target these kinds of mistakes in order to correct them before it is too late.

Another initiative recently put in place by our university is designed to improve the quality of French taught in the schools. This is the creation of a French proficiency certificate for students who already have a teacher's licence, but who are trying to develop their knowledge of French. This certificate has been approved by the Maritime Provinces Higher Education Commission and is recognized by the Nova Scotia Ministry of Education.

Teachers who register for this certificate take a series of 10 courses in French for 30 hours of credits, and they participate in what we call summer institutes, which last two to three weeks. We have observed that the benefits of our certificate go far beyond any improvement in the quality of French. Most teachers work in isolation in our province. In our schools, there is sometimes only one French teacher per school. Consequently, they have no one to speak French to.

Consequently, we have observed that bringing in the teachers to take French courses during the summer enables them to speak with each other in French, to discuss methodology and to establish networks of contacts they can use afterwards once they return to their schools.

Another initiative I would like to point out is the fact that our university recently became an approved centre for administering the TCF, the Test de connaissance du français. This test, which was developed by France's national ministry of education, is administered by the Centre international d'études pédagogiques, the CIEP. It is a standardized and calibrated French-language test that ranks candidates at one of the six levels of the scale established by the European Council under the European common framework of reference for languages. This test gives our students, and any member of the public who would like to know their level of French, the opportunity to gain international recognition for their accomplishments in French as a second language. We organized our very first TCF session on April 4, and we are very satisfied with the conduct of the test and the results obtained.

To the question as to what the federal government can do to help the postsecondary institutions support and improve second-language learning, I will answer that it would be a good idea to adopt and recognize the scale established by the European Council, once again under the European common framework of reference for languages, which establishes six levels of proficiency ranging from A1, the basic level, to C2, the advanced superior level.

This international recognition, I hope, will encourage our students to continue their education in French and to meet the challenge of aiming for perfection in spelling, grammar and syntax.

The federal government could also assist the postsecondary institutions in supporting second-language learning by putting in place as many measures as possible to promote the mobility of teachers and students. And here we come back to exactly the same idea, the idea of youth mobility across Canada and even internationally.

In that context, our university has established four exchanges with universities in France, with Nancy, Poitiers, Rouen and Tours. Through these exchanges, our students have the opportunity to study and work in France, and French students have the opportunity to come and study and work in Canada. Taking part in an exchange program is definitely the best way to acquire sound mastery of the French language and culture, and this is, in many cases, a decisive experience for our students. It can really determine where they want to go in life.

Currently, however, transferring credits between provinces and between countries is difficult, and we have few resources to encourage our students to take part in exchanges. Too often these are students who come from well-to-do families who have the resources to take part in exchanges.

In Europe, the Erasmus program, established by the European Commission some 20 years ago, does much to facilitate the transfer of credits and youth mobility. Young people have the opportunity to study at another institution without having to pay additional costs, and credits are identified and readily transferable. Financial assistance is provided under the Erasmus program: the Erasmus community scholarship and the mobility scholarship, which are incentives for students to take part in these exchanges.

There is no such thing in Canada, as far as I know, for students who would like to study in another country. The Explore program, which offers five-week immersion courses in spring and summer, is an excellent initiative. Many of our students take these programs, but a five-week stay is not really enough. If you want to learn a language and master it, you have to spend more time.

If the Canadian government could introduce a system of scholarships to assist our students in going on long-term exchanges, either here or abroad, that would really help young Canadians in a significant way, and would assist and promote international relations in general.

Thank you. I'll be ready to answer your questions later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Ms. Best, thank you for your presentation and for bringing the Test de connaissance du français to the committee's attention.

We'll now continue with Mr. Ipperciel.

[Donald Ipperciel, Assistant Dean to Research, Saint-Jean Campus, University of Alberta]

Mr. Chairman and members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. First I would like to thank you for the invitation to attend this meeting. The dean of the Saint-Jean Campus, Professor Marc Arnal, regrets that he could not be here. Today he has to meet with representatives of the Province of Alberta to negotiate funding for the campus.

Without further ado, I would like to get to the heart of the matter by answering your questions.

Does our institution receive funding from the federal government? The answer is yes. Out of a budget of $9.25 million, $2.7 million, or 29%, comes from Canadian Heritage. Another portion of federal funding comes from the Consortium national de formation en santé, nearly $700,000, slightly more than 7%. This portion funds our health sciences program.

At our institution, are there any specific programs supporting the development of the official language communities? In fact, the development of the francophone minority communities is the purpose of the Saint-Jean Campus. Historically, the Collège Saint-Jean was founded by Franco-Albertans in 1908 and served that minority population exclusively. In 1977, the college became a part of the University of Alberta and became the Faculté Saint-Jean. Since 2005, the faculty has taken on the name “Campus Saint-Jean”, thus cementing its special status as a francophone institution within the university.

The campus offers French-language programs in education, French, Canadian studies, political science, sociology, economics, administration, biology, mathematics and others. The Saint-Jean Campus is a leader in Alberta's francophone community, alongside the Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta and Radio-Canada (Alberta).

Are there any specific programs supporting the learning of French or English as a second language? The work of the Saint-Jean Campus on second language learning deserves special attention since the mission that the Campus has established is to teach French and English as second languages.

You should know that 67% of the 670 students on campus today are anglophones from French immersion programs, and 5% come from outside Canada. The percentage of francophone students is declining and now stands at 27%, while the percentage of immersion and international students is rising.

In view of these circumstances, you will understand why the efforts of the Saint-Jean Campus have gradually shifted toward the training of non-francophone students, whom we call francophile students. The French program, which is tailor-made for that population, is one of the biggest programs on the campus, after the education program. However, core French training is mandatory for all campus programs.

In addition to the formal programs, the Saint-Jean Campus has established a whole series of extra-curricular measures. These include the establishment of a language assistance centre called “La Centrale”, which students go to outside class hours to improve their oral and written skills. Saint-Jean Campus also uses its student residents as a tool for learning French, to the extent that its residents must communicate solely in French on site. A recent study has demonstrated the pedagogical effectiveness of this initiative. Saint-Jean Campus has also established a French theatre program and club in which students can develop their language proficiency in a rich cultural context, and so on.

In the past five years, the campus has also established a comprehensive English second-language program enabling unilingual francophone students to acquire a university level in English. The assistance centre, La Centrale, also offers tutoring in English.

What initiatives could the postsecondary institutions introduce to promote the development of the communities? For many years now, Saint-Jean Campus has had numerous ties with the francophone community of Alberta. The purpose of those ties is precisely to promote the development of Alberta's francophone community and second language learning. For example, its sponsorship of the Toastmasters Club enables francophones to develop their speaking skills in French. Another example is its sponsorship of the Saint-Jean choral society, which welcomes all members of the francophone community.

Lastly, I would note its support for the various community groups to which the campus opens its premises at no cost. More than half of the council of the Association Francophonie jeunesse de l'Alberta are students at the campus, which is also represented on the council of the Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta. The campus does not operate in isolation, but is very much a part of the francophone community it serves. Its very existence helps to ensure the survival and vitality of the francophone community in Alberta.

A few years ago, the University of Alberta adopted a new position in its language policy. As a result of the presence of Saint-Jean Campus being in its midst, it bills itself as a bilingual institution and has accordingly adopted a bilingual designation: “University of Alberta” and “Université de l'Alberta”, which appears at the entrance to Saint-Jean Campus.

However, the bilingualism of the University of Alberta has not been fully thought out in all respects. In the current context, the language instruction mandate at the University of Alberta falls to four units: the French sector of the Department of Modern Languages, the Faculty of Continuing Education, the Augustana Campus, which is located in the small town of Camrose, approximately 100 km from Edmonton, and the Campus Saint-Jean.

We believe that, to optimize French-language learning in Alberta, the coordination of French programs should be centralized on the Saint-Jean Campus. That, however, is an internal debate that the campus intends to conduct with central university authorities.

As regards the fourth and final question, as to how the federal government could support the efforts made by postsecondary institutions, I would say that the federal government could provide its support on certain issues. I'll mention three.

First, the federal government, in recent years, has begun to encourage the supply of courses in French at anglophone universities. As part of that initiative, which was not prepared through a clear strategic plan, no one considered either the negative impact it would have on francophone institutions operating in minority settings or the perverse effect that diluting the supply of French courses would have on the ultimate objective of achieving optimum development of second-language learning. We believe that a clear distinction must be drawn, for the purpose of distributing federal funding, between institutions whose primary responsibility is French, like Campus Saint-Jean, and institutions that only secondarily offer courses in French.

Second, if the university can contribute to community development and second-language learning, it is not as a community centre or educational institution, but rather as a university. However, what distinguishes a university from other institutions of learning is its research mandate. A university with a weak research component is thus an inferior institution, with all the consequences that can have on its reputation, available funding and services that can be offered. Only an academically strong university can fully carry out its community mission. Only francophone minority universities and campuses face structural barriers in the field of research that undermine their competitiveness and reputations. Consequently, we recommend that the federal government develop a plan to correct this situation.

In more concrete terms, francophone minority universities and campuses manage to secure only a small portion of research funding from federal granting agencies such as the SSHRC and NSERC. There are funds for research on Canadian francophonie, but the idea is not to promote research on the francophone community, but rather by francophone institutions and their researchers in order to permit the development of francophone university institutions that will be leaders in the development of francophone communities outside Quebec. We thus could foresee, perhaps within the existing granting agencies, competitive funds granted solely to francophone minority universities and campuses, with a mandate to reduce, even if only a little, the existing structural inequities.

Third, it would be useful to produce a study on the additional costs resulting from French-language instruction in postsecondary education in order to quantify the concept of “structural barriers” which French-language minority postsecondary institutions face. The federal government's support here is decisive.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ipperciel.

We'll now go to Mr. Maher, from the University of Calgary.

[Dan Maher, Acting Dean, Faculty of Humanities, University of Calgary]

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen members of the committee, thank you for inviting us.

First, I would like to talk about the Albertan context and about the context in south Alberta. There is an incredible need for teachers in French immersion and core French programs. The Albertan government had proposed to require that second-language instruction be provided over five years. Unfortunately, it decided to make that a recommendation, not a requirement.

Immersion programs are operating very well, and enrolment is up. We also have a lot of immersion programs in Spanish, German and Chinese, but 75% of second-language students enrol in French immersion. French is taught in the Department of French, Italian and Hispanic Studies. We note that multilingualism is quite widespread because a large number of our students are doing a double major. We are not competing with Spanish or Italian, but we have students who are doing double majors.

Enrolment in French courses is roughly stable, both for registration in the courses as such and in the major fields. We also offer courses under the acronym FLIP, which means French Language Instruction Program. We offer courses in disciplines such as history, sociology, religious studies and others, in French. This enables students from immersion to stay in touch with French, even if they are not specialists in that language.

In addition, the Centre français is working with the department. We do approximately 8,000 or 9,000 individuals visits there a year. The centre also gives not-for-credit courses to more than 500 students a year and organizes immersion weekends and so on.

As regards special initiatives for French, we are aiming in particular to organize short-term language stays to introduce students to French so that they will continue and spend a year or a semester in a francophone environment.

In winter, during reading week, we organize a course in Quebec. A teacher and a graduate student accompany a group of some 20 students. They visit museums and other institutions, with activities before and after their stay in Quebec.

We have had exchange programs with certain groups for some time now, including the Université François-Rabelais in Tours. We send students to Tours for the entire year, but their numbers are quite limited. We will be organizing a one-month course with a group that will be accompanied by a Calgary professor and also courses with professors from Tours.

As regards education programs, the Faculty of Education already has a two-year program which is given entirely in French. We have a joint five-year French and education program, which is just starting and for which we still have to solve a number of administrative problems. We're working on that.

We would like to increase the number of scholarships awarded to students who go on language stays.

As my colleague just said, the idea is to put the study of French in a university context and to promote participation by post-doctoral research fellows and guest professors. We've done this, but we're trying to do more. For example, next year, we will be welcoming a Senegalese linguist for a semeste, and, over the next semester, a guest professor from Quebec will come and give courses at our university.

The language research centre has teaching technology projects, and we now have a pilot project designed to evaluate our programs by comparing them with the European common framework. In addition, my colleague has worked on a project on francophone immigration.

I believe I would like to stop there for the moment. We are prepared to answer your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, sir.

Now we'll immediately go to questions for our witnesses.

Mr. D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you all for coming from the four corners of this country to appear before us this morning.

I would like to address the issue of the teacher shortage, which you all mentioned. Are we just talking about the primary and secondary levels, or is that at the postsecondary level as well? Some of my colleagues might say that we aren't here to interfere in the affairs of the provinces, but, if the provinces aren't handling their bilingualism affairs and there aren't any teachers who can teach in French at the primary and secondary levels, there is a problem.

Ms. Best, I believe, mentioned that, even though French is taught at the primary and secondary levels, there is often a lack of rigour. So if there is a shortage of teachers and a lack of rigour, how can we expect that, when they leave university, these students will be perfectly bilingual and able to fit into the federal government, among other things? I would like to hear one or two comments on that point. I'll have other questions later on.

[Janice Best]

I would say that the shortage of qualified teaching staff is a very serious problem. Often in the schools, no teachers have done any studies in French, but the principal, who needs to find someone to give the courses in that subject, looks among his staff for someone who has taken French courses at university. Here we're talking about the person who will be asked to give French courses and who has taken, let's say, a total of four French courses in his or her entire education. That person is not really qualified to teach French, but since there's no one else, that person will be asked to give the French courses.

I believe that this situation is not rare, at least in Nova Scotia. At many schools, teachers do not have the necessary qualifications, whereas there is a lot of pressure from parents who want French courses to be given at school. You see this kind of case in the program we've established for teachers. Many haven't done a specialization in French, but wind up teaching French.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I heard you were offering courses in science and education in French to correct what is not being done at the basic level. You probably understand the problem and you want to introduce training in French, in education, so that those teachers will go and teach at the primary and secondary levels so as to improve bilingualism skills. Is that correct?

[Danielle Arcand]

Our efforts to provide people with core French training are significant, and that's a large part of what we do in the context of initial training. I don't think the idea is to correct so much as to supplement. Curricula are now very demanding in many fields, at the elementary and secondary levels. We now have to take it upon ourselves to teach social functions that used to be taught by the family. There may ultimately be less time left to teach.

Initial training is very important, and continuing training is as well. What you're doing with the Explore program is tremendous. I think we have to increase the capability to train people once they are already employed and to offer them subjects that interest them. Grammar is important, but, on its own, it's not always the first choice of people who want to continue developing their skills.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I agree with you. I'll have a chance to come back to this later, in another round. You say the idea isn't to correct the situation, but, on the other hand, as Ms. Best mentioned, there is a lack of rigour. That means that, at the basic level, someone hasn't done his job. These people are virtually drawing straws to decide who's going to teach French.

The problem isn't just that the school doesn't have enough resources. Someone else has to provide them, and that could be the provincial government.

You know the situation and what has to be done for the future, but there are people, at the basic level, who don't necessarily understand the situation 100 percent. In British Columbia, people want to learn French but aren't able to do so because there aren't any teachers. The federal government increasingly wants employees to be bilingual in order to be sure it can provide the services it has to deliver to the Canadian population in both languages, but it does not necessarily have all the tools it needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. D'Amours.

Perhaps you would like to comment briefly on that question, Mr. Maher.

[Dan Maher]

Yes. In the context of French instruction, core French is a poor cousin, but I believe, with regard to rigour, that we're trying to emphasize the language skills of teachers.

For example, we want to put this pilot project on the European common framework into practice. The University of Calgary, with the Alliance française, is also offering the DELF and DALF diplomas. In that way, we want to establish an acceptable basic level for teachers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

We'll now go to Mr. Nadeau.