Evidence of meeting #22 for Official Languages in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Lise Zarac Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
I'm talking about the action plan submitted in 2007 to solve the problems. Is there an action plan?
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
Are you talking about the Canadian Forces' action plan?
Liberal
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
The Canadian Forces have developed a transformation model. As I mentioned at the outset, I haven't looked at it closely enough to be able to validate or verify what's been done. It's a step forward because, under that plan, we must ensure that people receive all services in their mother tongue in their work place. For my part, I'm going to study the model and subsequently conduct follow-up.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
Ms. Zarac, there is a strategic plan for the Borden base that was submitted by the Canadian Forces in August 2007. We're going to get it, and you will be able to ask your questions.
We'll continue with Ms. Guay.
Bloc
Monique Guay Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Daigle, I'm really wondering. You have a very important role to play. You are the ombudsman. However, it seems to me that you don't have all the necessary resources to solve this problem.
Do you have the power to do that? That's the question.
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
The means at my disposal under my mandate are not binding. I have a mandate to analyze, investigate, make recommendations, conduct follow-up and pursue follow-up until I'm satisfied that corrective measures have been taken to—
Bloc
Monique Guay Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
You're telling me you can't change things. Ultimately, you have a power of recommendation, like the Commissioner of Official Languages. If you receive complaints, you forward them to the Commissioner, who will make his report. He doesn't really have any power, but he will nevertheless make a report. That report is sent to the committee. Ultimately, it's the business of the departments. It's the Minister of Defence who should be here instead of you today. We should be putting these questions to him. You're presenting a report and it's very important that we have that information. However, the committee should perhaps consider whether we should meet with the Minister of Defence so that he can tell us why this is not working. Ultimately, he's the one who has the real power.
Am I right?
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
We're reporting on what we've discovered. The issues become important when there is an injustice. That's why I've given this file priority. If the idea is to determine how this issue is evolving and what is being implemented, it's the Canadian Forces that have the means to explain to you why—
Bloc
Monique Guay Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
So it's up to the Minister of Defence. You're saying you don't get a lot of complaints, that you prefer that complaints be handled on the military bases. Between the two of us, if a person files a complaint on his own military base, he could well wind up cleaning the tiles with a toothbrush. It causes conflict situations on a military base. As you know very well, these are small homogeneous groups. Everything is known.
If a complaint is filed directly with you, the ombudsman, it isn't handled directly on the base. I don't understand why you prefer that complaints be handled directly on the bases rather than be forwarded to you. That might protect the military members and you could react more quickly than when the complaints are handled on the bases.
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
I'd like to correct one point. The complaints come to my office. I don't know the number of complaints we've received on this matter. However, the complaints started when the previous ombudsman, Mr. Yves Côté, conducted a visit of CFB Borden. He met francophone groups that informed him about this problem. At my office, the complaints process is still the same and will continue to be. Whoever has a complaint to make can do so directly with the ombudsman, without any fear of reprisal.
Bloc
Monique Guay Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
That's important. That often happens, as you know. We won't conceal that fact.
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
As regards the Borden file, the persons responsible there haven't done enough. However, they have established a website and appointed an official languages champion. Recruits and candidates are increasingly being made aware of their official languages rights. During the subsequent visits that we are going to conduct, we'll be highlighting that and questioning people to determine whether they are having problems in that regard. So we'll be doing quite continuous follow-up.
Bloc
Monique Guay Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
When are you going to develop a complete report? Have you scheduled a date? Are you going to do a quarterly or annual report? Exactly how are you going to do this?
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
In this matter, we've had a main report and two follow-up visits. We've submitted the entire file. We've referred the systemic official languages investigation as such to the Commissioner of Official Languages a little more because that's part of his mandate. My mandate doesn't focus mainly on official languages, but rather on all situations of injustice.
So we're going to continue following up and reporting to the Commissioner of Official Languages on situations that we think are even more deplorable so that he can include that in his audit as such.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
Mr. Ombudsman, I read in the documents that the bilingual instructors, precisely because they are bilingual, have twice as much work as the unilingual instructors, that they have obsolete material in French and that they have to translate it themselves.
I hope you'll have occasion to travel to all Canadian Forces facilities to ensure that those people get all the help they need when they have to give training in both languages, so that they have all the course material required to do that.
You probably won't have time to answer my next question, but we'll come back to it. If a young francophone from Borden settles with his young family on a military base in Alberta or Saskatchewan, when will he be able to receive all services in French so that his children are not assimilated by the community? This is a major problem. Francophones are being assimilated by the Canadian Forces. I have a military father who did not experience that misfortune.
I would like to come back to this later. When will it be possible to offer all services in French to families and military members on military bases across Canada?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
We'll come back to that. Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.
We'll continue with Mr. Petit.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning, Mr. Daigle. Good morning, Mr. Egglefield.
In 2007, we put some questions to your predecessor, who had come here. Here's what we got. I'm going to summarize this for you in a few words.
First, I come from the province of Quebec, as do you. You know as well as I do that the closing of the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean for nearly 10 years hurt us badly with regard to the chain of command because non-commissioned officers receive their instruction there. Those NCOs are subsequently assigned across Canada. That hurt us very badly. Naturally, we reopened it, but it was opened very recently. We're the ones who reopened it.
There's something else, and here I agree with the opposition people. Isn't there a tendency toward inertia at staff headquarters, regardless of whether it's bilingual or not? I'll explain what I mean by inertia. You testified about your experience: you enlisted in the Canadian armed forces, you belonged to the Royal 22nd Regiment, you were posted to Borden, where you tried to improve things. However, you weren't the commandant there; there were others above you. And perhaps those people didn't understand your desire to apply the Official Languages Act. That's the second thing.
There is a third thing. The National Defence Official Languages Program Transformation Model has been introduced and it is a model that extends over a number of years. Naturally, you are like me: you've just arrived, and I've just recently been elected. For those 10 years when the Royal Military College Saint-Jean was closed, I couldn't be here because I wasn't even a member of Parliament. They were there and they kept it closed. So that hurt my province.
I want to know whether you—as Ms. Guay asked—can prepare a report for us so that we can see how that program has evolved. Otherwise, I'm going to ask you to come back, and we'll still be at the same point. Will you be able to provide us with a report based on your experience. You saw how it was at CFB Borden without the official languages. And what is the situation now? We're giving you a push so that you can give us an answer because that's what we need. We need to reassure our young people who are enlisting in the Canadian Forces.
Can you give us an answer in a few seconds because I'll have another question to ask you?
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
As I mentioned, Mr. Chairman, the details of the National Defence Official Language Program Transformation Model are not completely known. We're going to study the model and perhaps validate it and perhaps verify the outcomes following from it.
It's important for me to ensure this follow-up as well, since this is part of file of injustices that have been raised concerning the official languages.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Mr. Daigle, you belonged to the Royal 22nd Regiment at CFB Valcartier and perhaps another regiment that is stationed on that base. On site, there are francophone doctors, firefighters and nurses, whom you have the power to transfer. Why, in some cases, do you keep them all in Quebec, as Mr. Lemieux said? I agree, but you can also transfer them to Borden so they can provide services in French. Your superiors have the power to transfer military members to another base, whether they be physicians, dentists, nurses, firefighters or police officers, so that they can provide services in French.
Has any thought been given to doing that or is there an exclusion?
Ombudsman, Office of the Ombudsman, Department of National Defence
In the files I've read, it was recommended that instructors and people be sent to provide services to military members on certain bases. Mr. Egglefield may know more about that, but, based on the latest information I've read, an effort has been made to increase assignments of bilingual staff to those bases. However, I remember that this wasn't enough, that it did not meet the demand at that time.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Have you checked to see whether the Canadian Forces have entered into agreements with the French, Belgian or Tunisian armed forces, which can provide you with physicians, nurses and firefighters? There are exchanges between armed forces.