Official Languages Committee on Feb. 24th, 2009

[Tommy Théberge]

You've asked a very interesting question. It also brings us around to discussing new definitions for the roles that people play in society. I would just like to clarify one thing. When you talk about audio recordings, that is an alternative media format, just as braille and large print are alternative formats. Depending on a person's needs and his or her preferred way of reading, he or she may have various options to choose from.

At the moment, what you say is correct. In my role as a voter—and I say "my", because I am also a visually impaired individual—in my role as a taxpayer, I do not necessarily have access to the documents in the medium I would like to use or need. You spoke about older individuals who prefer audio recordings. Others may prefer braille, because audio recordings are difficult as well, and present different issues. At the federal level, the CRA had put out two calls to tender for the adaptation of documents into braille. By some twist of fate, neither call for tender proved successful in terms of locating a producer, and, in the end, no service was offered. As a result, the service is available in audio only.

The situation is somewhat similar for other issues as well. Of course, this is all related to the question of reasonable accommodation as well. That is the context of this entire debate. Federally, I remember that Elections Canada had approached me two or three years ago to see how the ballot could be adapted from coast to coast to coast, in the 308 ridings, if I remember correctly. I was asked how this could be done. Naturally, I made some suggestions, but there was no follow-up on this either.

So I think there is a great deal of work that needs to be done on that score.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you for your answer, Mr. Théberge.

Thank you, Mr. Petit.

We will now begin our second round of questions. We seem to be touching upon more subjects with each set of questions.

Ms. Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Théberge. I'm very happy that you're here with us today to educate us on a subject that I personally know very little about. Our discussion has centred primarily on braille, but earlier, you also briefly mentioned quality of life and how people's day-to-day lives are affected. This is what I'd like to focus on.

Do you believe that standardizing braille could improve people's quality of life because they would be able to get around more easily every day? I would like to hear you talk about that.

[Tommy Théberge]

There is a link between the standardization of braille and quality of life. Often, when a person loses his sight, one of the first things he needs to “tackle“ is finding a way to resume his regular daily activities. These people are just starting out and must learn new ways of doing things. One can conclude therefore that the impact will be apparent from the way they relearn to do certain things.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Are services different for people who have to move from one place to another, from one province to another? Is a person able to orient him or herself easily?

[Tommy Théberge]

You've brought up an interesting point. Take, for example, elevator advertisements. Under the standardized French braille code, the Louis-Braille code is to be used for all advertisements posted in public places. Therefore, even though the Antoine figures are used in written texts, prepared documents, etc., a francophone living in Quebec, Ontario or British Columbia will still be able to recognize the same figures in public places. As far as advertisements in public places are concerned, there has been no change.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you.

[Tommy Théberge]

However, there are not enough advertisements or posters. But that's another issue.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Earlier, you mentioned that things are further along on the anglophone side. However, you also said that there were problems.

[Tommy Théberge]

As far as Grade II braille is concerned, yes.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Standardization also affects Grade II braille. Do you think you'll encounter the same problems? Will you be able to meet your September 2009 objective?

[Tommy Théberge]

September 2009 was our target date for Grade I braille. With respect to Grade II braille, the committee of experts has already met. At the beginning of January, I had the opportunity to be involved in celebrations marking the 200^th anniversary of the birth of Louis Braille, in Paris. It was a chance for us to meet with our French cousins and to initiate some discussions on Grade II braille. Very quickly, we came to a consensus on several things. Perhaps I am a consummate optimist, or perhaps it's just my personality. I expect that progress will made more quickly on the question of Grade II braille than it will for Grade I braille. The trend is toward fewer abbreviations. So then, the overall number of abbreviations, of which there are currently 900, could be reduced.

In addition, we would like to target abbreviations according to the words that appear most often in a document. A woman by the name of Ms. Fontaine did a doctoral thesis which put us on to this very interesting approach. The words that appear most often in a document are the ones that perhaps should be abbreviated. This is more or less the basic premise that will be guiding our work. The members of the Francophonie seemed to be intrigued with this approach. In my opinion, we should see some progress fairly quickly on the issue of Grade II braille.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

You also mentioned that funding remains an outstanding issue. Do you believe that the current economic crisis will affect your goal, or are you confident that the work will be completed?

[Tommy Théberge]

In my opinion, the work should continue at its normal pace because the process is already under way. Where the impact of the economic crisis might be felt is in the area of requests to access to documents. Users could be denied access to documents at various levels, because of budgetary issues. However, we do have a commercial component. Many private companies work with us. However, I certainly am anticipating a small decline in the number of requests of this nature.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Ms. Zarac.

We will now continue with the member who brought this subject to the committee's attention, Ms. Monique Guay.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Théberge.

My father is blind, and as such, is very familiar with the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille. I have a few questions to ask you, particularly concerning financing.

You offer a vast array of services to the blind and you even help them get around their neighbourhood. You show them how to use their cane to step down from a sidewalk and how how to listen for things; like it or not, they develop other senses.

My father listens frequently to audio books. You provide audio books to the blind. However, books like this are in short supply and the selection isn't great, or so I've been told. I was there when a young woman brought him some audio books and she talked to me about financing. The blind have certain needs, and only specialists are really able to help them. Not just anyone can serve as a volunteer and teach a blind person to use the new tools that are now a part of their everyday life.

As I was saying, my father listens frequently to audio books, but at the same time, given his age, it is certainly harder to learn braille. Do you have a special technique that you employ to help people like him?

As far as financing is concerned, what is it that you really need and what can we, at the federal level, do for you to help you provide more effective services to the visually impaired?

[Tommy Théberge]

Funding is indeed a major issue. Earlier, I briefly talked about the Service québécois du livre adapté, the Quebec service for book adaptation. Currently, in Quebec, there is a centralized alternative format portal that people can use to request audio transcripts and braille transcripts. People make requests like this. Funding is modest, even if it was increased recently. Certainly, a larger number of documents could be made available. In the case of educational and learning institutions, be they CEGEPs or universities, all documents are not accessible. Often, students must make choices and sacrifice some of their courses because the material is not available. Choices that have to be made are sometimes based on purely economic considerations. It all comes down to a question of funding levels for post-secondary institutions, primary schools and secondary schools, as well as for the Department of Culture.

In addition, in Quebec, there is a visual aid program for disabled persons. This program falls within the purview of the Régie de l'assurance maladie du Québec. Some coverage is therefore available. I mention this at this time, because it is one of the issues I'm working on with the Institut. These individuals may qualify for technical aids, depending on their situation. Obviously, there are rules. The choices are not limitless. There are restrictions on prices or on access to certain types of assistance, depending on whether a person is working, in school, or unemployed. If a person is unemployed, they qualify for less assistance than a student or a worker. These are some of the perceived inequities of an individual program. Funding is provided by Quebec's Department of Health which, in my estimation, is a model organization. I have been able to review a number of assistance programs for the visually impaired, in Canada and abroad, and I can say that the Quebec model is increasingly viewed as a model to emulate.

Conversely, in Ontario, people have to assume 25% of the cost of technical assistance. A video magnifier, a device that is used to enlarge text on a television screen, can cost about $2,000. The province requires payment of 25% of the cost, or in other words, a payment of $500. People can use this device for five years and then, if they want a more advanced model, they are eligible for the same subsidy. However, not everyone has $500 to spare. One must be aware of the fact that within the visually impaired community, average income and education levels are very low. For those who are well off, this isn't a problem. However, those who have needs unfortunately do not have the means to meet them must go without this technical assistance.

In Quebec, a health care professional commissioned by a rehabilitation centre does an assessment. People are then able to receive assistance free-of-charge and the training services that came along with it. It is clear that access to these services is an issue for visually impaired persons living outside Quebec.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Théberge.

I now hand the floor over to our Parliamentary Secretary for Official Languages, Ms. Shelly Glover.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Théberge.

As a new member of Parliament, I am truly impressed to be learning all of this. You spoke about Grade II braille, which consists of 900 symbols. In Parliament, acronyms are used and it's difficult to know what they all stand for. I can only imagine how long it takes to abbreviate symbols.

I would like to talk to you about France. You said that France has been implementing code standardization practices since 2006 or 2007. Are we talking about Grade II braille or Grade I braille? Grade I braille? Alright.

I learn from my own mistakes as well as from those made by others. I'm wondering if there were any surveys conducted in France to identify the type of errors that were made or the changes that need to be made to refine standardization.

[Tommy Théberge]

In France, the new code has been in use for the last two or three years. It has had the greatest impact on producers, those who are responsible for braille transcription rather than on readers, because readers are taught how to read the document. There may not have been any studies done.

During my most recent trip to Paris, I got the impression things were going rather well. I had the opportunity to visit l'Institut national des jeunes aveugles, an institution serving 200 young people who are blind. It is an institutional setting, which seems to be the type of setting most people who are blind are in. Things seem to be going rather well.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I'm really quite impressed. You seem to be quite a talented man and you are working on several fronts. Thank you.

[Tommy Théberge]

It isn't always obvious, there are a number of intermediaries.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

You mentioned transportation services. In my riding, there are blind people who take the bus. Do you know what the provinces are doing to standardize bus schedules? Is that part of the braille standardization initiative?

[Tommy Théberge]

You raise a good point. I have often seen braille on bus doors. Louis-Braille numbers identify the door number. However, it could take a long time for a blind person to find these numbers on a door. The conventions are not quite in place yet as to where the braille would be located.

You referred to schedules. We might as well forget about that. No transit corporation issues its schedules in braille. The institute offers plans and has developed expertise in the field of geospatial development. Two years ago we signed an agreement with the STM that allowed me to access all of their plans. We adapted 44 out of 69 stations in Montreal to the tactile system. Blind people can consult a booklet and see, for each level and transit shelter, where they would gain access to the metro and bus stops. We are currently working on this for Montreal.

There is a great deal of work to be done in other cities and public places, like, for instance, this wonderful place we find ourselves in today. There is no site plan for this building any more than there is for the House of Commons. How could a blind person conceptualize the space he or she is in? We now offer a new product, for the development of tactile matrixes on paper, allowing blind people to understand where they are and what route they should take to get to a given location. There still is a great deal of work to be done when it comes to access to transit, public buildings, museums. We are navigating in unchartered waters.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

You talked about elections. Do people who are blind receive special ballots? Is that how it works?