Official Languages Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2009

[Marie-France Kenny]

I'd like to clarify one point. Earlier I talked about a portion of my salary. However, I was working for a federal Crown corporation at the time and I was managing the national official languages program. So I was on the other side of the fence. Back home in Saskatchewan, the official languages were working. If that was the case in Saskatchewan, that should also be the case in Ottawa, Montreal and across the country. We didn't have an official languages budget, except for a part of my salary. I also managed translation and a portion of my assistant's salary. Earlier I didn't mean that I had used my personal money to fund official languages.

You asked whether we had the necessary resources. We don't have the required resources to go to all the federal offices and check to see whether service is being offered in both languages. That, in any case, is the commissioner's role. Obviously, when I go somewhere and I'm not served in French, I ask for that to be done, and if I don't get that result, I file a complaint. After 40 years, however, it's a bit frustrating, as you said.

Concerning the document that we submitted, people asked us what our concrete solutions were. First, we have neither the expertise nor the necessary resources to conduct a reform of the regulations made under the act. Second, we don't want to propose any solutions without first consulting the government. We think that this is a discussion and consultation paper and that we must work together with your committee, that of the Senate, the offices of the three ministers concerned, the Prime Minister's Office and the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages. The key stakeholders would be able to find a method that works.

We're talking about amendments to the regulations, but that doesn't represent millions of dollars. Once there is a will to sit down together and to ensure that the Official Languages Act is entirely complied with, it will be done. I also guarantee that it won't be very costly. It's the will that's lacking.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

But if the will isn't there, we can't act. I've been in Parliament for 16 years now, and for some time I've been receiving letters written in English only from members seeking support for a private member's bill they are introducing. This kind of thing didn't used to happen. In that kind of situation, I write them, and I send the letter back. There's a translation department here that enables us to have a letter translated in less than a day. I've noticed, however, that even that service has changed.

I very much fear that we're seeing a step backward, not an advance. We'll have to work together to improve the situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, we'll continue with Ms. Glover.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Ms. Kenny and Ms. Bossé.

I just wanted to respond briefly to the comment made by my colleague Mr. D'Amours concerning his suggestion regarding a new program. There will be a new program, the Canada Periodical Fund, and eligibility criteria. It will be announced shortly and it will start on April 1. I just wanted to tell you that the minister has listened to you and acted.

[Marie-France Kenny]

Thank you.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I want to ask you a few questions. I wrote them down because I only have five minutes. So allow me to put them to you.

On page 10, you conclude that it's simply the political and administrative will that is lacking. And yet, since I've been sitting on this committee, we've had hundreds of witnesses tell us as well that there is a real shortage of bilingual people qualified to enter the labour force. We've conducted a study on postsecondary education, on universities, schools, etc. We're also told it's really important to start at the primary and secondary levels. We have a real shortage for training bilingual people to help us achieve our 100% objective, if that's possible.

Why did you choose to disregard all that testimony when you concluded that it was only political and administrative will affecting this situation?

I can tell you that I am really confident that all the politicians here in the House and on our committee have the will in this area. I'm convinced that our minister has the will and that we are doing our best to promote this act. Ms. Boucher talked about 32.4%. That's even higher than the 24% that the number of francophones represent across Canada. I'm proud of that, but the reality is that you don't have enough people to occupy those positions. You disregarded that testimony, and I'd like to know why.

[Marie-France Kenny]

We didn't disregard the testimony.

I told you earlier that I worked for the federal government in Saskatchewan. I agree with you that it's hard to recruit bilingual people, but we managed to do so in Saskatchewan. If we can do it in Saskatchewan, there's no reason why it can't be done in Ottawa, Montreal or other designated bilingual regions.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

We're told it isn't possible. I myself had trouble finding bilingual people to work with me because I always encourage bilingualism. We have extraordinary francophones in Manitoba, but they also have trouble finding qualified people to fill bilingual positions. That's really a fact that's missing from your document. I would have liked the conclusion to include the testimony of those hundreds of witnesses. Francophones from across Canada testified here to explain our shortage in that area.

I've done things in the provinces and territories. You mentioned the provinces and territories. I visited the school board in my province, in my riding, to push it as well because, as we have seen, we don't have enough bilingual teachers, qualified bilingual people. I took measures to push it even though that was not an area under my jurisdiction. I would like to know what the FCFA has done at the provincial and territorial levels to push that as well because the entire committee acknowledges that more has to be done at the primary and secondary levels.

Have you prepared a document to encourage them? Have you had any meetings with the Council of Ministers of Education Canada? I'd like to know what you've done with the other levels of government.

Thank you.

[Marie-France Kenny]

At the provincial and territorial level, the FCFA's member organizations work with their respective departments. I must admit to you that they are very good and do an enormous amount of work on promotion. You need only think of the “Bonjour Saskatchewan” campaign promoting francophone culture and immersion, as you are fully doing it.

I would like to add that, when we say that the political and administrative will is lacking, we're not talking about the everyone. We don't put everyone in the same basket. Earlier I said: here we have a group of champions. There are champions in the departments, among the politicians and employees, but, in a number of departments, the will isn't there. It hasn't even become an after-thought.

In my opinion, it is essential for this communication to start from the top and for measurement tools to be established so that it can be said that, in the next five years, here's where we want to be with the Official Languages Act, so that there is accountability and so that there are measures.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

But if the problem—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Ms. Glover.

We'll continue with Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

If Ms. Boucher hadn't mentioned the fact that the Prime Minister had received the rank of Grand-Croix of the Ordre de la Pléiade from the Assemblée parlementaire de la Francophonie, I wouldn't have talked about it. I wasn't in favour of that, and I'm going to tell you why.

I don't think you should receive that kind of reward simply because you've learned to speak French. Let's look at the work that's been done. Pardon me, Ms. Boucher, but you talked about it, so I'm going to do so as well. It was the Conservative government that cancelled Canada's Court Challenges Program, for which we had to fight. In fact, it has not yet been resolved; it's not really in place. The program disappeared about two years ago. It was given to a university, but it's not yet been resolved.

The Conservatives voted against requiring Supreme Court judges to be bilingual. The Supreme Court isn't a place where you make gifts to lawyers or judges. The Supreme Court justices are there for Canadian citizens. Citizens should feel comfortable in the Supreme Court.

As for the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality, where do we stand? The situation regarding funding sent to the communities is worse this year. And they award a medal! I think it was just to be nice. They figured that if they awarded a medal, the government might be kinder and give more.

I've given you my opinion. If Ms. Boucher hadn't broached the subject, I wouldn't have addressed it, but she opened the door.

Let's go back to the Commissioner's powers because I also say he should have more. I go further than you because you used the word ombudsman, which I don't like. An ombudsman checks, reports, but you'd think the government was never wrong. A commissioner is appointed under the act; he has power. Currently, for example, he can't issue contraventions or anything of that kind, but he has the power to take the government to court and thus to ensure that the court imposes sanctions.

I would like to hear what you have to say. How do you view the commissioner's role? You said he should have enhanced powers. How could that help us?

[Marie-France Kenny]

You just said it. The Commissioner's role is to prepare reports, to investigate, and so on. Once he has investigated and found that Marie-France Kenny, for example, has breached the act and obligations under the Official Languages Act, the commissioner has to tell me what I'm going to do. Corrective measures have to be imposed, and if I don't take corrective measures, I should be sanctioned.

[An hon. member]

Can't he do that?

[Marie-France Kenny]

He can't do it right now, and that's why we're talking about enhanced powers.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

In fact, Ms. Kenny, you know that the government will never grant the commissioner that power. That will remain with Parliament. The only thing that can bring that kind of change about would be for a member, in the context of a minority government, to table a bill giving the commissioner that power.

Whatever the government in power, I don't think a majority government would give the commissioner the power to discipline the government because it's the government that's violating the act.

[Marie-France Kenny]

I would like to add something. I'm looking at your committee. You are committed to linguistic duality and you prepare reports. We've seen the impact that you can have; we see it and we thank you for the rigour you show. You are the only committee that has demanded compliance with the act.

However, I must tell you that a number of reports prepared by the dedicated, brilliant and intelligent people who are seated here have been falling on deaf ears for years, since you have been in existence. I'm not criticizing any government in particular, but I'm telling you that your reports often aren't listened to.

And yet you put your hearts into it, your work, your commitment and your dedication. We find that terrible. The same is true in the case of the commissioner. He's there to say that he has investigated and that someone isn't right, or is right, because an investigation may be conducted and may not be founded. That's previously happened. However, if a complaint is deemed valid, why is it that no corrective action is taken? We're talking about a quasi-constitutional act that, 40 years later, is still not fully complied with.

That was an incidental remark on my part.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Godin.

I want to mention to you that the Vancouver airport people told us they appreciate the consultation service component provided by the commissioner and intended to assist organizations in implementing the act.

[Marie-France Kenny]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

We're going to begin our third round with Ms. Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, mesdames. Thank you for being here today.

Thank you especially for the study you've submitted to us. I find it factual. You managed to show both the positive and negative aspects, where there are any. That's important. I think studies of this kind can make us react and urge us to take the necessary measures.

I agree with you: there has been little progress in 40 years. The example of the City of Mississauga comes to mind. Thirty years ago, when the act was already in effect, that city was mostly anglophone. Now, however, you have a better chance of hearing French when you walk around Mississauga than when you take the metro in Montreal. There are more and more regions like that.

That leads me to ask you how the statistics are established and how often places are designated bilingual.

[Marie-France Kenny]

The departments and Crown corporations, that is the institutions subject to the act, must carry out an exercise every 10 years. Let's take, for example, the Mississauga office of Canada Post, which serves a given region. Based on the census, it is determined whether 5% of the community is francophone or not. The designation of the office is assigned on that basis. Incidentally, this is a highly costly exercise for the departments and Crown corporations.

However, I know, since I have carried it out, that it is left to every department to determine the service area of the office. In the case of this example, a Canada Post office, the service area may prove to be so big that francophones represent only 5% of the population there. However, there may be three French-language schools, three francophone communities very close to the office. That's why it would be logical to offer the service, in my view.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Why is that left up to the departments? How could that situation be improved?

[Marie-France Kenny]

It's due to the regulations, the regulations made under the act. The 5% statistic, which is complex, does not take a number of factors into account. It is ultimately static, whereas the communities evolve. For those reasons, we believe the focus should be not just on the act, but on all the regulations related to the manner in which the act is implemented, and we should see together how to go about making it respond to the situation.

One model that works very well is Manitoba's. French-language services there are offered by the province, the federal government and the municipality in service centres where the communities are. It isn't the only model, but it's definitely one of the ones that should be explored.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

So it's a model to follow. Thank you.

You also talked about will, and I'd like to go back to that subject.

When we asked the representatives of the departments to tell us why there weren't more bilingual employees at designated bilingual locations, they told us that it was hard to find staff. Do you think that's an acceptable response? Is that normal? Shouldn't those people be offered incentives? Are there deficiencies in the selection criteria or incentives?