Official Languages Committee on Dec. 7th, 2010

[Camille Therriault-Power]

Yes.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Is that measured? Is there follow-up, training?

[Camille Therriault-Power]

Yes, there is follow-up. However, I can tell you that we could do a much better job if we had more clearly defined measures in order to address the deficiencies that were noted in the report card in the areas of language of work and service to the public in particular.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you.

I imagine my time is up, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

That's the case, with a few seconds to spare. Thank you, Mrs. Zarac.

Mr. Nadeau, it's your turn.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You read the report, so you know Ms. Pascale Houle. For your information, the commissioner's office has also received complaints that show it is sometimes hard for travellers returning to the country by land to be served by the Canada Border Services Agency in the language of their choice. That is indeed your agency, isn't it? One French-speaking woman had her vehicle and the horse she was importing from the United States seized at the Lansdowne border crossing in Ontario—a crossing that has been the subject of frequent complaints—because of a linguistic misunderstanding that could have been avoided if she had been served, as she was entitled to be, by a border services officer who could speak French instead of a unilingual anglophone officer. I quote Ms. Houle:

I didn't know that I could ask to be served in French at an Ontario border crossing, and none of the five or six officers that I had before me in the main building led me to understand that by saying "Bonjour" or informed me that I indeed had that right...

Ontario is in Canada, as far as I know.

The act has been in existence for 40 years. I know you've only recently become head of the agency. As you can understand, I am a sovereigntist and indépendantiste. I come from Hawkesbury, Ontario. I taught Franco-Ontarians for quite a long time. I remember crossing the border at Lacolle into New York state. We were received on the American side by a Mr. Bourque, who did not speak French, but who spelled his name, Bourque, as francophones do. And yet we had more trouble on the way home. It was at an Ontario border crossing. We asked to be served in French—I ask for that, as you can understand—and, dear lord, they just stared at us. That was in 2004; your agency were already established. You can tell me about September 11; I understand the situation, but you were already established.

I also lived in Saskatchewan, and we used to go through the United States to get to Windsor. We went through Detroit. The same thing happened in Windsor. They asked me, in English: "Who's in your car?" I answered, in French: "My two children, Myriam and Marysa." I answered in French and I continued to do that. They eventually found someone. I nevertheless waited at least 45 minutes. I was returning to the Canada, and Ontario, as I said, is part of Canada. That was before September 11. The fact nevertheless remains that, when you're returning to the country that is supposed to be your own, this raises some serious questions in your mind. That's a personal story. You may tell me it's worth what it's worth.

According to the report, there has not been much change in active offer. That is to say 46%. On average, one in two persons is able to provide active offer. "Hi! Bonjour! May I help you? Est-ce que je peux vous aider?" It starts with that.

Tell me what you're going to do to convince me that every citizen who wants services in French can get them if he or she goes crosses into Quebec, Ontario or Alberta, where Canada still has provinces. I'm listening.

[Luc Portelance]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

That's a very legitimate question. And it's definitely central to our concerns with regard to service to the public.

CBSA has 158 designated bilingual offices in Canada. Your example is a good one in that, in certain locations, all offices are designated bilingual, such as in Quebec, for example. As you move farther west, a selection of offices are bilingual. In Saskatchewan, for example, there is one office, the one at North Portal. There is Coutts in Alberta and Emerson in Manitoba, and so on.

These are designated offices, and you're entirely right to expect bilingual services there; we moreover advertise bilingual service there.

The purpose of the work we've done to date is to draw a distinction among the problems we have: systemic problems or training or adjustment problems.

We have the largest number of complaints in five places: Ottawa airport, Windsor, Toronto airport, Peace Bridge and the Lansdowne Bridge. Lansdowne, I believe, is the place where Ms. Houle ran into trouble

Our action plan for service to the public is undoubtedly the most demanding and rigorous action plan.

Historically, filling positions, generating a critical mass of bilingual people at certain locations, has been a major challenge. That's not an excuse, but it is a major challenge for the agency.

Today, as a result of work schedules, we need a certain critical mass of people who are fully bilingual.

You're right. Active offer, which means saying, "Hello! Bonjour!" is easy to provide, but we expect more than that. People should be able to be served in French without having to speak to a second person, without being treated like second-class citizens because the first person was unable to respond to them.

We're identifying all border crossings where there are challenges and, for every crossing, looking at where we have problems regarding training, management and critical mass in staffing areas.

The approach we are planning for certain places is a very comprehensive approach. At certain locations, including Lansdowne, the critical mass of bilingual people must be increased. We're doing calculations to determine the necessary percentage so that we can have one or two service points where people can have access to bilingual services.

This is quite a complex issue. In certain locations, we have very few or even no complaints. Service appears to be appropriate.

The five posts that I mentioned to you receive approximately 30% of all traffic into Canada; that's a lot. At Windsor alone, for example, we receive four to five million travellers every year. We get a few complaints, but, as madam said earlier, one complaint is one complaint too many.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Nadeau.

We'll continue with Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to the committee.

In your report, you say: "While the results of the commissioner's assessment were disappointing, I must stress that we're not here to contest a grade or argue methodology." Do you want to do that?

[Luc Portelance]

Contest?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Contest?

[Luc Portelance]

I'm going to say no. We've had discussions with the commissioner—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

So why do you say that in your report?

[Luc Portelance]

We discussed the report. With regard to methodology, we can wonder why we went from an average or high mark to a poor mark.

We're talking about methodology. What was taken into account this time is different from what was considered two years ago. So we've wound up with different marks.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Is that because there wasn't any improvement?

[Luc Portelance]

No, I can't say it's because of that. I believe the commissioner used different data this year. Instead of focusing, for example, on the processes and policies in place, he looked at other figures.

We're not contesting methodology because the answers to the questions are there and results are results. Obviously, our mark has changed in the past two years, but ultimately what the commissioner looked at was different. I admit the marks are not very high and that we have to improve.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You say yourself that there are problems at certain locations and that you are aware of that. Perhaps the commissioner addressed those problems directly.

[Luc Portelance]

Look, I don't disagree—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You should go and see what's being done in the offices rather than in the field. Perhaps the commissioner went into the field this time.

[Luc Portelance]

I believe that his methodology—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Did they take the lady's horse because they didn't understand her? That's quite sad. Every time you go through customs when you come back from another country, you almost wonder whether you're going to be able to get back into your own country. That has a curious effect. I was in Chile last week, but I was less afraid when I arrived there than when I came back to Canada. That's funny, isn't it? Here I'm talking about my own country. Entering France seems easy as anything to me. It's in some of those countries that the problems are normally the most serious. And yet because a person doesn't speak English in our bilingual country, she is served in that manner. As Mr. Nadeau said, you arrive at customs and, if you speak French, they stare at you and you're immediately shoved aside because you didn't speak English. Even before getting to that stage, you wonder whether you're going to get back into your country. That 's the kind of service that's offered to our citizens? That's a shame! It's truly shameful!

I congratulate the Commissioner of Official Languages. Since he's given you a mark that leaves something to be desired, you've allegedly put an entire mechanism in motion. Why wasn't that mechanism established two, three or four years ago?

[Luc Portelance]

Mr. Chairman, I believe I understand the question as to why the mechanism is being applied today, but not previously. I would say very seriously to you that it's not as though the agency wasn't paying attention to official languages. The complaints that come from the Commissioner of Official Languages are handled seriously. They're discussed on the human resources committee. At headquarters, we have an internal team of seven persons whose sole duty is to manage the official languages program. Recruitment is done in both official languages. I would say that 5,000 of our officers assigned to border services have received training in the past two years to familiarize them with their obligations. We distribute kits to all border crossings. A serious job was being done and has always been done with regard to official languages. I wouldn't want to leave you with the impression that we've decided to focus on the issue suddenly as a result of our poor mark. As president, I can tell you that, among the 87 million travellers every year, there are some very positive experiences and some that are unacceptable.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Of course, if the passenger speaks the same language as the staff, that's positive; there's no problem. However, when that isn't the case, and the next plane is leaving in a few minutes and you have to stay in Toronto when you have to get to Bathurst, New Brunswick, you're shaking in your boots.

[Luc Portelance]

You mentioned Toronto. That's a place where we'll have to increase our capacity. We accept the mark, especially since, in some specific places, there is a combination of...

Mr. Chairman, recruiting bilingual people in certain locations is a major challenge. In Windsor, for example, francophones represent 5% of the population. At Niagara, Fort Erie, we're talking about 3%. Recruitment is a challenge. So we have to focus on training and retention. There's work to be done. That's what I mean.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

In view of the situation, do you go to the colleges, universities and schools where students learn French to tell them that they can have a career in this field? Do you do that?