Official Languages Committee on March 30th, 2010

[Ghislaine Charlebois]

Among other issues, our audit will lead us to address the designation of bilingual positions, recruitment, employee language training and the assignment of staff on the ground and in the air. We want to meet with employees and unions. We really want to get to the bottom of the issue. With regard to the questions that you raise, we find that the complaints-based approach does not appear to be resolving the issues. We want to get to the bottom of things and understand why Air Canada is not in a position—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

There is another institution called the court. You have the power to turn to the courts. This is not only a question of respect, it is an obligation under the law. I consider you to be the watchdog of the Official Languages Act. If a complaints-based process does not work, then there is the law and the courts. If Air Canada does not comply with the Official Languages Act, will you feel compelled to call on the courts to ensure compliance?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Godin. There is the law and then there is the stopwatch. Thank you. You have done a good job of covering the issue.

We still have some speakers on the list, starting with Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I would be remiss if I didn't try to obtain a response to that thoughtful question, so go ahead Mr. Commissioner.

[Graham Fraser]

We are considering all the instruments—and I do say “all the instruments”—within the act to ensure its compliance. That includes the commissioner's power to use a legal recourse.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

I would now like to ask my third question about the games, Commissioner.

During his appearance last week, the minister spoke about Pascal Couchepin, who was the Great Witness of the francophonie at the Vancouver Winter Olympic Games. However, the Great Witness of the francophonie for the Turin Games, Lise Bissonnette, commented on the Vancouver Winter Olympic Games during an interview with Carl Bernier on Radio-Canada radio. Mr. Bernier questioned her about an article that appeared in La Presse the day after the opening ceremony. In that article, she wrote that she had been utterly scandalized about the lack of space given to French. Ms. Bissonnette then indicated that she believed that a distinction was again being made between the cultural language and the language of communication, a topic that she would address during a speech that she gave later that day. She added that the opening ceremony was first and foremost a cultural event and that the organizers had completely missed the boat. Another Great Witness of the francophonie seems to agree with you.

I went to listen to Ms. Bissonnette's speech. That led me to ask the minister another question. Mr. Commissioner, do we want to treat French like a functional language rather than a language that builds a sense of identity? If possible, I would like you to deal with that issue in your report, because I believe it goes beyond the issue of the games and that opening ceremony. It addresses the implementation of the Official Languages Act and Canada's identity. Is French a language that builds our identity and culture, or is it becoming a functional, utilitarian language? I will come back to that, but I will await your report before delving into that further.

Let us talk about Air Canada, even though my colleague, Mr. Godin, has gotten ahead of me and asked my question in part. During the 37th, 38th and 39th Parliaments, we attempted to adopt legislation, but to no avail. Can you access the courts without such legislation?

[Graham Fraser]

It is important to be extremely specific about the obligations that have been respected or not before going before the courts. I think that Air Canada's experience before the courts was not a good one. If we remember the Thibodeau case where Air Canada appealed, the appeal court judge ruled that the carrier had the obligation to produce results. That said, with regard to intervening in Air Canada's corporate structure, we must be extremely cautious. That is why I believe it is extremely important to have a bill covering entities and not just ACE because, if we are to believe the rumours, it is quite possible that ACE will be dissolved in the coming weeks or months. It is essential to be extremely prudent before going before the courts, when dealing with an organization undergoing change.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I will soon be out of time. I have a request to make of you, Commissioner, and your team. In the absence of legislation, would you be prepared to review the last one or three bills submitted, and could you provide us with your comments concerning amendments that should be made to them to deal with all eventualities? You know, there are other ways of submitting bills before Parliament, so if an MP or a senator were prepared to do so I would like them to be able to benefit from your comments before moving forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Bélanger. We will now move over to Mr. Généreux.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Fraser, good morning everyone, and welcome.

Since Air Canada is obviously a very big company with its subsidiaries, what tools are available to you to verify what the company says concerning, for example, the hiring of staff, the major difficulty in finding bilingual staff in Canada, or with regard to the application of the Official Languages Act? What tools do you use in order to verify what it tells you?

[Graham Fraser]

First, we have tools in order to respond to complaints and to conduct audits, issue notices and also communicate with upper management. Also, the member has raised the idea of going before the courts. We have already intervened before the courts to support Mr. Thibodeau when he made his case. So, such a tool does exist. As Ms. Charlebois explained, the audit allows us to identify exactly the kind of issue that you have raised.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

If you could have other tools in order to investigate further, what would they look like?

[Graham Fraser]

You know the commissioner has considerable power to investigate. We can summon witnesses. We have a broad series of powers to investigate federal institutions or institutions that are subject to the Official Languages Act and have obligations under it.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Forgive my ignorance, but I would like to know whether, in the past two years, you have met on a regular basis with Air Canada in order to verify your facts?

[Graham Fraser]

I have a meeting scheduled this week. I have already met with the president. That said, the usual way is through the analysts. Perhaps Ms. Charlebois could briefly explain how the analyst communicates with Air Canada.

[Ghislaine Charlebois]

We have analysts who are assigned to various institutions. We have a team of analysts who regularly work with Air Canada. They have contacts within that institution. They also have access to all the individuals with whom they need to speak when a complaint is made. In short, there is very regular communication.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

If I can come back to the comments made earlier by Mr. Godin and if I have understood correctly, based on his interpretation or his verification of the facts, there has been a significant decline in the level of bilingualism within Air Canada. Based on your interpretation, have you reached the same conclusion?

[Graham Fraser]

This is one of the institutions that has the most difficulty respecting its obligations under the act. There is a fairly continuous series of complaints laid before us. The committee has already heard a number of Air Canada's responses and they are similar to what Air Canada's representatives told us in October, here in committee. So, it is clear that there are problems.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

One final question, Mr. Chair.

What do you believe are the reasons? Is it a lack of will by the company or is it because the company is providing such a broad range of services that it is difficult for it to correctly provide the service? I am talking about the company and its subsidiaries.

[Graham Fraser]

Based on what Air Canada has told me, there are a number of factors. It merged with Canadian, 10 years ago, which means that the percentage of bilingual employees dropped suddenly from 60% to 40%. Then, at the time of the merger, there was a group of employees who were upset, according to Air Canada about the way they were treated during the merger. This created various problems within the organization for reasons unrelated to the provision of service in both official languages.

It also claims to have difficulty, even with individuals who have completed immersion programs, in meeting the bilingualism standards to which the company is subject outside Quebec and the National Capital Region.

The aeronautics industry is also suffering economic problems. We were told that, in a given period, when the company almost went bankrupt, the situation was quite dire. There were other priorities, such as keeping the company alive.

I think that the best people to answer that question in detail would be Air Canada representatives because they are the ones subject to such obligations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

We will end our third round with Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will be sharing my time with Mr. Lemay.

First, I would simply like to provide Ms. Boucher with some reassurance about the Olympics. The 1976 Montreal Games were clearly the most francophone games in Canada. I remember—I was 17—that our beloved Queen of England, Elizabeth II, made the opening remarks at the games solely in French. She adopted the language used by the Québécois nation to open the games. The most francophone games in Canada were in Montreal.

Commissioner, I simply want to give you other ideas, that you have no doubt already thought of, with regard to the report that you will table in the fall. The Quebec Premier, Jean Charest, was not happy with the opening ceremonies either. You should, nevertheless, verify this with him.

Ms. Marois, who is the leader of the official opposition in Quebec, had stated that 25% of the content would have to be French in order to recognize the Quebec fact within the Canadian nation. Not just one Garou would have had to sing, but rather four. Perhaps you have heard that. In fact, there should have been more francophone content.

In my opinion, we always see this kind of minimalism. It's as if people said that there needs to be some French, so we'll put a bit in as a stopgap and to try to make the francophones happy without making the anglophones unhappy.

That is always what I think of when I think about this kind of situation. For too many people in Canada, there are still only two official languages: English and translation. That is how it works and how people think. Forget about the French fact. It is a necessary evil for some and something to get rid of for others. We can think of eastern Ontario and our friend Galganov, who comes back to the fore now and again.

Also, we heard that institutions still fail to understand their role. After 143 years in a so-called confederation which really isn't one, but which is rather a federation, it's difficult to have to hear repeated every time that the French fact within the Canadian whole is still not understood at all kinds of events and particularly for high-level international events.

Those are the comments I wanted to make before giving the floor to my friend, Mr. Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

I will be fairly brief because there will likely be a fourth round. I may be able to ask other questions.

For your information, Commissioner, the memorandum of understanding signed between Toronto and the Pan American Games stipulates that the second language will be Spanish.

This situation will have to be monitored, I am telling you, because I am aware of what is going on in these negotiations. It is possible that English and Spanish will be the official languages at the Pan American Games on Canadian territory. I just wanted you to know that.

To come back to Air Canada, I have a question for you. Do you have access to travellers' complaints that are submitted directly to Air Canada?

[Graham Fraser]

If they do not provide a copy of the complaints they submit directly to Air Canada, I have no way of gaining access to them. If a traveller writes a letter of complaint to the president of Air Canada and sends us a copy, then we will be aware of the situation. For example, if members of Parliament send a complaint to a minister and c.c. me, I will receive a copy of that letter. But if they don't, then there is no way of knowing that complaints have been made.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

If you receive a copy of the complaint—and it is recommended that people do send you a copy—does Air Canada send you a copy of the responses that it sends to citizens who complain that there is a lack of respect for the two official languages on a flight?