Evidence of meeting #119 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was brunswick.
A recording is available from Parliament.
School Counsellor, Southern Vancouver Island, Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique
Education isn't limited to the years from kindergarten to grade 12. It extends from the cradle to the grave.
Saint-Jean, Lib.
Earlier I thought I had heard that early childhood isn't recognized under the act. The Department of Canadian Heritage provides no funding in this area as the act currently doesn't cover it. Is that correct?
Outgoing Chair, Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique
We have carried out pilot projects for children 4 years of age in our schools. We used money from OLEP for that purpose, but it covers only 5 out of 40 schools. I checked with the Ministry of Education to see how much it would cost us, for example, to provide services to children 4 years of age. The ministry laughed at me and told me it would cost $10 million. Consequently, I need an additional $10 million in my budget, but you're right, it's not in the act. It falls under Family Support Services.
Saint-Jean, Lib.
I'm going to expand my subject. Earlier someone said you all had quite an obvious problem with accountability for cash transfers. Would it be possible for federal money to go directly to the francophone school boards? Would that be unconstitutional? What might stand in the way of that?
Mr. Barry, do you want to respond?
Chair, Conseil des écoles fransaskoises
That would be ideal; that's what we would like. As I said earlier, there are examples of situations in which the federal government is currently dealing directly with postsecondary institutions regarding health by going through an association whose name I've forgotten but that represents the institutions in the health world. So this already exists. It would be ideal for us, of course, but if we can't achieve the ideal, at least provide us with a framework that governs funding: why and how must we allocate that funding, while ensuring that we comply with the principle of "by and for" so that everyone's comfortable? It's uncomfortable for me to be here today, to step up to the microphone and speak because I'm going to go back to Saskatchewan and cross paths with our Minister of Education. Having said that, I want to show some conviction here and talk in a manner commensurate with our aspirations.
For us, early childhood, as you say, is really the base; that's where it all starts. We're in an assimilation setting. The growth factor is also important so that our schools continue to grow. We also need to solve social problems such as today's exogamy.
Chair, Conseil des écoles fransaskoises
I was just saying that, from the outset, we must prepare those students who need to succeed from early childhood, and we have to support them on their cultural and academic journey.
Conservative
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Going back to federal-provincial relations, earlier Mr. Arseneault made a connection with the bad provinces, or at least the provinces that are resisting the carbon tax. We could do the same thing in the provinces that resist the francophonie or, in any case, services to francophones. Perhaps we could punish them in a way. Wouldn't there be another way to do that? We know that relations with francophone communities are difficult in a number of provinces. How could the federal government include that in the Official Languages Act? Since the provinces obviously have to be respected, how can we integrate that into the act? I completely agree with you: sometimes money is given to the provinces, but that money ultimately isn't used for the very specific and defined purposes it's intended to serve. Sincerely, I would cut their funding, but we have to find the right way to do it. It's a matter of accountability, not punishment.
Would you like to react to that, Ms. Lapierre?
Outgoing Chair, Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique
I think there are two possibilities. You can give money directly to the school boards and give the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages more teeth.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Since education is a provincial jurisdiction, how can we take action while respecting that jurisdiction?
Outgoing Chair, Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique
You can give money in return for a product. For example, you can grant supplementary funding intended for the francophone minority. You must therefore check to see whether that money has really been used as supplementary funding and for the intended purposes. Was it really given to a francophone minority? I think that, if that was verified, that would already be a significant improvement.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
You say we could, for example, give the province $100 for education and specify that $25 must be used for the francophonie.
Outgoing Chair, Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique
The province would then have to prove that $25 was used for the francophonie.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
I see, but you have to be aware that accountability between the provincial and federal governments is meaningless. Honestly, it doesn't exist.
Outgoing Chair, Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique
Exactly. You have to have accountability. If you don't, then the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages has to have more teeth. The office can conduct investigations and bring court actions in an attempt to enforce the Official Languages Act, but it has no real power. That's why we are talking about putting that responsibility in the hands of the Treasury Board because it has the necessary powers to tell the people concerned that their funding will be cut if they don't do what they're supposed to do.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Ms. Morin, earlier I saw in your eyes that you had something to add.
Executive Director, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française
It was about your previous remarks. If you view this act as a pillar of Canada's identity, there may be a way to agree on principles. We obviously can't go into details and conduct a methodical, wide-ranging exercise. However, we could collectively agree on principles. We could also show some creativity in the way we conduct that conversation on principles. That's what the FCCF has put forward.
The government has a relatively new model under which it can conduct conversations with aboriginal peoples on principles. We think it's a model that could be reproduced in the exercise...
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Are you telling me this conversation has to be conducted on a continuous basis rather than be of limited duration? The Senate has been studying Bill S-209 for more than a year. It would be very surprising if the changes proposed to the act were made before the next election; it's virtually impossible. The next government will therefore have to continue the exercise.
What exactly are you saying about the way the conversation should be conducted? I want to be sure I understand what you're telling me. Should it be done continuously or should it be limited in time?
Executive Director, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française
Believe me, your idea of having a continuous conversation is excellent.
What I'm saying is that the debates in this modernization exercise must be conducted in several areas and focused on many aspects. They must be substantive debates, debates on principles. We think this has to be a social project. It must be a...
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
In that case, there should be more people like Denise Bombardier rocking the boat because people react to this.
Executive Director, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française
Yes, absolutely.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
You can shoot the messenger, but her words have triggered a discussion, and you can agree or disagree with it. I'm totally opposed to it. However, it has triggered a discussion that has woken people up. These remarks have shaken the Canadian francophonie.
What I understand from this is that Ms. Bombardier, who is a Quebecer, has the same perception as Quebecers in general, who think this francophonie doesn't exist. We know it does because we sit on the committee, we travel, we go and see you, you come and see us and so on. However, the general population doesn't have the same perception.
That's why earlier you talked about promoting official languages. It's up to the federal government to do that, not necessarily the provinces. Collectively, we can do it together, but...
President, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française
It's also up to the federal government. What we're saying is that you have to go beyond consultation. Consultation, as it's been conducted in recent years, doesn't work. Let's talk instead about co-development, joint creation, working together, in both a short-term perspective, as we are doing with this bill, and for the long term. That has to be done on a continuous and time-limited basis.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
I'm extremely pleased to hear that these immersion schools are overflowing with students all across the country. That means there's francophone vitality everywhere in Canada.
