Evidence of meeting #25 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was immigrants.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Denis Vaillancourt  President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario
Peter Hominuk  Executive Director, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario
Annick Schulz  Director of Communications, Marketing and External Relations, Réseau de développement économique et d'employabilité (RDÉE) Ontario
Valérie Sniadoch  Director, Employability and Immigration, Réseau de développement économique et d'employabilité (RDÉE) Ontario

9:15 a.m.

President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Denis Vaillancourt

First of all, we do of course want Ontario's share to be increased.

Second, whether it is increased or not, the next action plan must calculate inflation for the programs referred to as community programming initiatives, and must focus on planning. If the approach is fragmented, there will be no continuity and there will be poor investments.

Third, multi-year funding should be considered. I must say that, with our regional Canadian Heritage colleagues from Ontario, we have experimented with this and the results were very positive. Moreover, the strategic plan that we developed with support from Canadian Heritage allowed us to obtain help to mobilize people in the community. On behalf of the Assemblée and with staff, Mr. Hominuk chairs four round tables that support local activity, promote the language, create leadership, in short, anything to round out the plan. So multi-year funding is needed, taking inflation into account.

I have two comments. I followed Mr. Boissonault during the consultations in Ontario. It is clear that measures can be taken in minority communities with regard to the digital space. We have to invest in the digital space. Governments could play a role through their own websites. I think the federal government does this, despite some minor weaknesses. My province also does it quite well, also with minor weaknesses. But these are steps in the right direction.

The digital space is important to young people. Clearly, it is the new avenue for communications. Nevertheless, a minority community has to stick together physically from time to time. The importance of public spaces must not be overlooked. With respect to the francophone university, for instance, the Ontario government has often said it could be a virtual university. For higher education, though, we need to be surrounded by walls. The best description I heard, during the consultation on the Franco-Ontarian university, came from a young person who said we need walls that breathe what we are. I'm sorry, but the Internet does not breathe. The walls and hallways of an institution are important points of reference.

So we must invest in continuity. There was a time during the last six years of my mandate when we were not allowed to travel. If we do not help the community to come together from time to time, how can we create synergy and compare experiences? These factors should be considered.

9:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Peter Hominuk

I would like to add that the community strategic plan is very clear, with measurable indicators. With the round tables Mr. Vaillancourt mentioned, we are making the plan operational, determining who will do what and how. So we have a very clear plan. We know what our 10-year objective is and we know how to get there.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON

How could the federal action plan support your strategic plan?

9:15 a.m.

President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Denis Vaillancourt

We want the action plan to continue to provide multi-year funding for community activities. For our part, we know we have to be accountable. We are not there yet, but we are working on a comprehensive overview. Within the next six months, we will be able to tell you who is doing what in each community in Ontario, how it contributes to the objectives of the strategic plan, and how it lines up with government objectives.

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Peter Hominuk

One thing the federal government could do through it committees is ensure that all departments are involved in the implementation of the programs for francophones. All departments could be partners in this. It is not the responsibility of Canadian Heritage alone. That is one of the key messages we are giving you today.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much.

That concludes the first round.

We will now move on to the next subject, immigration.

Mr. Vaillancourt, you have the floor.

9:20 a.m.

President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Denis Vaillancourt

We have said a few things about immigration; I will not get into the figures.

Francophones who are immigrants account for about 10% of the Franco-Ontarian community. There are 50,000 to 60,000 newcomers. That is the basis for our survival. Franco-Ontarians spoke to us during the consultations about demographic weight. These 611,500 people represent 4.5% to 5% of the approximately 12 million residents of Ontario. The number of francophones is increasing in each census, primarily due to immigration from other countries or from other parts of Canada.

Sometimes we have immigrants who first arrive in Quebec, in Montreal, specifically. Being unable to find work, they move to Ontario. This poses a problem with respect to funding because it is the initial entry point that receives the funding. If the immigrant changes provinces, the new province does not receive that funding. This is our main demand with respect to immigration. The funding allocated when the immigrant first arrives must follow them when they change provinces. This is crucial for francophone communities.

Ms. Lapointe raised this earlier and I said I would respond. So now I will. In my opinion, IRCC must develop a “franco reflex”. Let me give you a few examples.

When immigrants are recruited abroad—you are familiar with the Canada-Quebec immigration agreement—, francophones from outside Quebec are sometimes part of the delegation and sometimes they are not. The federal government must do more to ensure that francophone communities have some visibility outside of Canada. I call that creating a “franco reflex“ and talking about francophone communities.

I have already given another example. At a meeting, I received a catalogue, available in both official languages, of all the resources available to immigrants. It was a meeting with francophones. I was shown the catalogue and all the resources available. There were a lot of resources, but the official had left the French version of the catalogue at the office. I told him that the corporate image should not be unilingual, in English only. The catalogue should be in both languages, double sided. If one image is projected and the other image is forgotten, it is like forgetting that francophones exist. It is not better than providing a catalogue in French only if the image to be projected is one of linguistic duality. That is important when we are outside the country.

I hope therefore that we can work more closely with the provinces in recruitment initiatives. I know that bilateral discussions must be held in this regard, but Franco-Ontarians must be part of those delegations. Our provincial government made a move recently. With the support of Quebec and New Brunswick, Ontario will become an observer at the International Organization of La Francophonie or the OIF. That will provide a showcase for Franco-Ontarian communities that we do not currently have.

Having a “franco reflex” is one part. I mentioned the very favourable comments by Ms. Chagger and Mr. Saini. They would have wanted to have been told that there are two official languages in Canada and to have heard about the benefits of learning French.

The other part is the economic benefit. As you know, the Conference Board has studied the economic benefits. I am a bit jealous of people in New Brunswick, for example, because they have bilingual call centres in that province. They could have been bilingual in Ontario. We have enough bilingual people but that argument was not made strongly enough.

Promoting linguistic duality at the international level provides an economic benefit for the whole country and for every province. There is a distinct benefit.

As I have often said this morning, the infrastructure in our province is predominantly anglophone.

When it comes to immigration, the welcoming and inclusion of francophones are not easy tasks. Among the groups working in the majority language, there are private agencies that specialize in helping immigrants integrate. That doesn't exist in francophone communities. Those agencies don't do that work in French. However, we have developed abilities to do so through our community organizations.

I will talk to you about the La Passerelle program in Toronto and about CESOQ, here in Ottawa. Those people are working on welcoming francophone immigrants to help them integrate the work community. Improvements are being made. Mr. Hominuk was a member of an expert panel in Toronto. So far, Ontario is the only province that has enshrined a 5% target in its legislation. We hare happy to learn that the deputy ministers of francophone affairs of the provinces outside Quebec recently met in Yellowknife and agreed that all the provinces should work on reaching a target of 5% for francophone immigration outside Quebec. That's a positive development, as there is some synergy. What francophone community groups are lacking is stable funding to help them play that community role.

I have met two or three French people from France who arrived through Toronto's Pearson Airport. However, it took them 18 months to find out that Toronto had a vibrant francophone community. Why did the border officers not tell them that? Why aren't they better connected with francophone organizations? Those are elements we have to take into account.

The other element that must be taken into account is what I would refer to as language training, as newcomers in Canada are concerned about finding work. The language issue aside, they want to work. In Ontario, they clearly must be provided with an opportunity to learn a second language, French, and also some English. We have to be careful about the learning of English. I am talking to you about Ontario as an educator. We have the ability to teach English because our French schools in Ontario are not unilingual. Students who graduate form our high schools are eligible to enrol in any university in the country, in English or in French. Our young people are so successful that we are losing leadership because they end up working internationally.

The training of immigrants in the language of Shakespeare for work should be provided by our francophone establishments. While they're learning the language, immigrants will also get references that will help them become part of the community. For example, are you familiar with Ottawa's Algonquin College? The college provides English as a second language courses for immigrants. However, the classroom references for those students do not come from the francophone community. Conversely, if the course was provided at Cité collégiale, the staff and the environment being francophone, the people learning English would be part of the context of that community, to which they would remain connected.

All too often, we manage to recruit them and bring them into the country, but despite that, three or four years later, they are in English schools and we have lost them. In addition to all the energy we have to expend to reach the 5%, we also have to invest energy into helping retain those people in the communities. They have to establish connections to the communities.

Thank you.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Very well. Thank you, Mr. Vaillancourt.

We will go to questions immediately, starting with Ms. Boucher.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Mr. Vaillancourt. Good morning, Mr. Hominuk.

It's very interesting for me, coming from Quebec, to hear people from Ontario talk about the francophonie in this way. I used to be the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for la Francophonie and Official Languages. I feel that, as far as linguistic duality in 2016 goes, everyone should be bilingual or at least speak both of Canada's official languages.

We have heard from IRCC representatives. You talked about the figures for Franco-Ontarians that have increased primarily because of immigration. Nevertheless, the officials were saying that they had not reached their target. The target was 4.4%, and they are at 1.4%.

Do your figures also reflect interprovincial migration?

9:30 a.m.

President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Denis Vaillancourt

Yes, absolutely. We call that secondary immigration.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Okay.

Are those people primarily Quebeckers? What percentage of them come from Quebec?

9:30 a.m.

President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Denis Vaillancourt

They come from Quebec for the most part, but also from elsewhere. Francophones sometimes arrive in Vancouver or in Manitoba. Immigrants do migrate within the country, but many francophones arrive in Montreal and, failing to find a job, they end up in Ontario because of Ottawa's proximity. Mr. Hominuk may have seen some figures on this—I have not—but I would bet that immigration to Toronto is mostly international.

9:30 a.m.

Executive Director, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Peter Hominuk

I would like to clarify that the number of Franco-Ontarians is increasing in Ontario, but not as quickly as the number of anglophones or people who are not Franco-Ontarians. In short, our population is growing, but it is experiencing a decline as a share of Ontario's population.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

As I said, I am a big advocate of health care services in French.

When francophone immigrants arrive in your region, do you have structures to help them when they are sick?

Are there guidelines that help them find health care services in French?

9:30 a.m.

President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Denis Vaillancourt

The short answer is yes. Having worked in the health care field in French, I have often said that Ontario has made progress in that area. Six planning entities spread out across the province have the mandate to inform the government of francophone communities' needs, including those of newcomers, and to implement the necessary health care services in French.

That often begins with schools. There are also francophone community health centres. Those people work with both the province and the Société santé en français nationally. As for the professionals we need in health care, we are connected to the Consortium national de formation en santé. That organization provides health care professionals.

To summarize my answer to your question, I would say that those community networks connect the entities. So we can refer those people to health care services in French.

That said, more work needs to be done to ensure access across Ontario. When it comes to the delivery of government services in French, designated areas cover 80% of Ontario. But as I already mentioned, in a city like Toronto, the problem is that the Toronto-Windsor corridor is so populated and urbanized that francophones often live in islands. The challenge is great, but we are working on it. It would be good for newcomers to be put in contact with francophone community groups from the outset. In downtown Toronto, for instance, there is a francophone community health centre. It's in the heart of the city, and all the services are available there.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you, Mr. Vaillancourt.

Mr. Vandal, go ahead.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB

Thank you. Your presentation was insightful.

I am from the Saint-Boniface neighbourhood, in Winnipeg, Manitoba. I believe the Société franco-manitobaine, the SFM, is your counterpart. That entity has sponsored a lot of organizations working in immigration in Manitoba. I would like to know what role you play in recruiting and welcoming immigrants.

9:35 a.m.

President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Denis Vaillancourt

Once again, I am happy that you are asking me this question.

If I was to talk to you about success stories in francophone immigration, I would talk about Winnipeg and Manitoba.

I will come back to what we are trying to do in Ontario. I am not a Franco-Manitoban, and I may give a poor rendering of the experience. The Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce meets with both francophones and anglophones. They have created niches. They were able to seek out francophones and integrate them into the communities, schools, universities and health care services. It's a success story in the sense that everyone has played a part.

In Ontario, we are trying to do the same thing. I talked to you about the community strategic plan. We are currently starting a sort of a white paper on immigration, to use government language. We are receiving support in that endeavour from Canadian Heritage, and we are extremely appreciative. That enables us to communicate with the community, determine specific needs and have lobbying tools to influence changes to public policies and help people collaborate.

Ontario has three immigrant welcome networks for francophones. Those networks' coordination with our committees is not perfect. However, the white paper will help us get structured in terms of the welcoming, inclusion and potential recruitment. Currently, francophone Ontario is having its voice heard in immigration, but it has not coordinated its efforts to enhance collaboration.

The white paper is in the works and will be published in the spring. It will talk about public policies or necessary changes, both in Ontario and in the federal government, for concerted action in terms of recruitment, inclusion and long-term retention.

Having worked with Mr. Hominuk in immigration, I can tell you that it's a very complex field, first because of federal-provincial jurisdictions that come into play, and also because of immigrants' diverse backgrounds and all the needs they have when they arrive in our region.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB

You mentioned several times that immigrant resources should follow them when they move. What is the rate of immigrant retention in Ontario? Can you tell us more about that?

9:35 a.m.

President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Denis Vaillancourt

I have not analyzed the retention of immigrants in communities, but perhaps Mr. Hominuk has gotten hold of some files and could talk to you about that.

In many cases, francophone immigrants have become the biggest activists when it comes to the language, especially in the regions of Toronto and South Central Ontario. We would like our own Franco-Ontarians to speak out as much. They say that they are entitled to this and that they are told that Canada is a bilingual country. We are currently explaining the Ontario reality to them. Those people are our allies and are interested in this issue.

Some people have been here for 20 years or 30 years and have remained in the francophone community. They are active in French, even if they work in English on a daily basis to survive. They remain very involved. I cannot tell you what the retention rate is, but I think the figure is positive.

9:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Peter Hominuk

If you want figures on this aspect, we could obtain them from school boards. There are a lot of immigrants in the schools of our regions.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you very much.

Mr. Choquette, the floor is yours.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Vaillancourt, I would like to quickly come back to what you said about francophone immigrants who arrive in Ontario and have to learn English. Immigrants already speak French when they settle here, but they often have to learn some English because their workplace requires it. You mentioned that they often move to anglophone areas instead of staying in the francophone community.

Why is that the case? What could the action plan or the federal government suggest to improve the situation? I don't understand why that has not been done already. Frankly, I am a bit shocked to see that our francophone immigrants are being sent to learn English in anglophone spaces, and not in a francophone community where they could continue to build ties with the community.

9:40 a.m.

President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario

Denis Vaillancourt

Why is that so? First, education comes under provincial jurisdiction, and the application is different.

I think that, with its target of 5% for francophone immigration, the Ontario government is aware of the reality. In addition, Franco-Ontarians know that they need to speak the other official language to work, unless they have a job in education or in some health centres. They have understood that.

At some point, the government told francophone immigrants that it would provide them with free language training courses. I had discussions with the Minister of Francophone Affairs at the time. I think that the action was initially very positive. It enabled francophone immigrants to take English as a second language courses for free, but they could take those courses in any educational institution in Ontario, either anglophone or francophone. Those are provincial decisions. That's when we said that, if an immigrant learns English in an anglophone institution, based on the community reference, there is a risk of investing in the second language, contributing to a loss for francophones.

In such cases, there are jurisdictional problems. I have heard about those aspects in consultations on official languages in Ontario and I have heard them in Sudbury. The roadmap can play a role of lever in some of those cases. So, if that is done, institutions will be eligible for certain funds and incentives. In that area, we have to be aware of the subtleties in the federal-provincial relations in education. In that sense, there may be some levers that can be used with the roadmap in immigration, for example.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC

That's interesting.

We are also talking about immigration, of course. Earlier, you talked about the roadmap. All departments and federal organizations must get involved. I don't know whether you participated in the review of horizontal governance of official languages.