Official Languages Committee on Nov. 15th, 2016

[Daniel Boivin]

These issues have been raised in the report of the Commissioner of Official Languages. So the problem has been clarified at the federal level. In Ontario, a report specifically on the situation in Ontario was prepared, notably by Justice Rouleau, who is a leader in access to justice. He found the same difficulty.

When a small community has a judge who is very functionally bilingual, but who is no longer available because of a trial or sick leave, for instance—and that's a situation we see as well—we need to “steal” the bilingual judge assigned to another community, which creates a domino effect that has an impact on all the communities. The waiting list for motions, requests or trials grows in each community.

The absence of one person causes a problem across the network. No matter how many people are involved, time adds up. Francophones then say that they don't want to wait for a solution to their problem and choose to move on to the English side. This domino effect is significant. The way to solve the problem is to ensure that there are enough bilingual appointments in every province.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

As you said earlier, you applaud the current policy of appointing bilingual judges, and you would like it to be permanent.

How might that come true?

[Daniel Boivin]

We were talking earlier about appointments to the Supreme Court. We must amend the Supreme Court Act to ensure the policy will be applied on a permanent basis.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

So it's through legislation and regulations on appointments.

[Daniel Boivin]

Legislation is the best way to ensure that the Supreme Court and the other superior courts have enough bilingual judges.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Do you have statistics on delayed or cancelled trials and on cases of people being released as a result of the delays linked to the lack of bilingual judges across the country?

Do these types of statistics exist?

[Daniel Boivin]

The best study is the one submitted a few years ago by the Commissioner of Official Languages. It concerns access to justice. I don't have the numbers on hand and I haven't heard about any studies as comprehensive as the Commissioner's study.

We see some fluctuations as a result of the effect I mentioned earlier. Occasionally, the service provided to francophones is exceptional. In Ottawa, for example, prothonotaries were responsible for francophone cases. Things moved very quickly, until one of them fell ill or was assigned to a more important case. The effect lasted six months. The delays became much longer on the francophone side.

It's difficult to keep longitudinal statistics on the effect, because we're continually moving faster or slower, faster or slower, and so on. We're really victims of—

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

You're saying the appointment of bilingual judges should become mandatory and should be regulated and legislated.

[Daniel Boivin]

Yes.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

That would be the solution. Is that correct?

[Daniel Boivin]

It would solve one of the problems.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Mr. Arseneault.

We'll now move on to the second part, which concerns immigration.

Mr. Boivin, you can tell us about the links between immigration and the justice sector. We're listening.

[Daniel Boivin]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You already know that immigration is very important for francophone minority communities in Canada. It's also obvious that, to successfully integrate into Canadian society, new immigrants must be aware of the standards and rights in Canada in all aspects of their integration into host communities. These aspects include property rental, property purchase, consumer protection, labour standards, separation and divorce, relations with the police or relations with the various governments.

Everyday life and justice intersect on many levels. These points of intersection can be sources of considerable stress for new immigrants, and can even constitute barriers to integration when the Canadian justice system differs significantly from the system in their country of origin.

That's exactly why, in 2011, the FAJEF conducted a major national study on the justice needs of francophone immigrants. Even though the study is now five years old, its findings are still very valid and they still guide our activities and planning.

The study collected information from 589 francophone immigrants from 35 different countries who lived in a number of provinces, including British Columbia, Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario and New Brunswick. The immigrants filled out a questionnaire and participated in discussion groups. The resulted showed two areas that required action with respect to new Canadians, namely, access to justice and access to legal professions.

In terms of access to justice, the study produced a bimodal result. Within the francophone immigrant populations, one group had a tremendous amount of legal needs and another group had very few legal needs or access to justice needs. It's important to note that a large proportion of women expressed many legal needs.

In cases where the francophone newcomers expressed many needs, it's not surprising to think that the needs mostly concerned help with immigration issues, such as immigration documents and sponsorship. The survey also revealed a major need for help with access to government services, including social services, health services and immigrant services, but also the entire social fabric.

The survey shed light on the major need for help with understanding contractual obligations in Canadian law, such as a lease on an apartment or a contract to rent or purchase a car. Lastly, there was a significant need for help with issues related to employment conditions, such as employment contracts and separation from work. All these areas were very important for the francophone immigrant populations.

Apart from the bimodal aspect of the determination of needs, the survey didn't reveal significant differences based on country of origin, location in Canada or family income.

The survey also showed a significant lack of knowledge of the legal resources available. For example, the newcomers didn't know who they could consult if a family member had trouble with the law or who could answer their legal questions.

The legal communities have tried to meet these needs by creating the legal information centres I mentioned earlier. Since the creation of these centres, the nature of the needs identified in the survey has been confirmed in the field. In some provinces, the immigrant population amounts to about 70% of the clients served by the legal centres.

It's also apparent that the services for newcomers cover much more than immigration law. As indicated in the study, immigrants ask for advice on all aspects of Canadian law. Therefore, the legal information centres are a valuable tool for both the established Canadian population and the immigrant population.

That's one of the reasons why the FAJEF recommended earlier that funding be provided to these centres, which are very important tools in many ways.

There's an urgent need for legal information in clear and understandable language to explain the basics of the justice system to Canadians and francophone immigrants who have no legal training. They need to receive an explanation on the immigration steps, but also on the basics of other aspects where everyday life and the legal system intersect.

The legal material must take into account cultural issues, beliefs and the attitudes of people, who could have a negative view of the Canadian justice system as a result of something that happened in their country of origin.

CliquezJustice.ca is a project that started in Ontario. However, the site is now a national legal information portal that gives the general public information in plain language on how the justice system works, on legal careers, and on various current topics in several legal fields, such as immigration.

The site also covers family law, housing and employment. In fact, it covers all the services identified in the study as services on which newcomers to Canada needed information. CliquezJustice.ca is now visited almost 15,000 times a month. The number of visits shows a need in this area.

With regard to francophone newcomers to Canada, the CliquezJustice.ca section on immigration is visited over 1,500 times a month. This means that francophone immigrants are also asking questions and that they need information.

I'll now talk about legal training.

The FAJEF's survey on immigration showed that francophone immigrants know little about legal careers in Canada. Even when people think they know about a given career, the fact that they had a different legal system in their country of origin often leads to confusion. Most francophone immigrants come from civil law countries. These immigrants have inaccurate information on the nature of the legal system and on the roles of each person in the system.

Legal careers are generally much less appealing to young francophone immigrants aged 12 to 18. The young immigrants are unfamiliar with these careers. They don't have models for these types of careers in their community and family. Unfortunately, they often see the justice system through the lens of a negative experience, for example with the police. Francophone immigrants are severely under-represented according to their proportional democratic weight in all legal careers.

Francophone immigrant populations would have much greater access to justice through projects such as CliquezJustice.ca. The roadmap should include these types of projects. It should be flexible enough to help identify ways to take action in the communities and to launch programs that may have an impact on a potential problem in the communities. CliquezJustice.ca is an example where, through networking, a very useful national project was successfully created.

The FAJEF believes that the four recommendations I identified earlier are completely consistent with the increase in access to justice for the general public, but also with the integration of newcomers to Canada, since they receive accurate information on the nature of the Canadian legal system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Mr. Boivin.

Mrs. Boucher, you have the floor.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Boivin, thank you again.

The issue is fairly clear. However, two points caught my attention. You spoke a great deal about programs and about educating immigrants on justice issues. However, these matters fall under provincial jurisdiction. Common law exists, but each province has its own justice system. Therefore, justice falls under provincial responsibility. The federal government can help in various areas, but many requests concern matters under provincial jurisdiction.

With regard to immigrants, you mentioned that most immigrants come from civil law countries. In Quebec, with the Code civil, the immigrants must feel somewhat more familiar with the system. However, outside Quebec, if the provinces don't provide a model, how can the federal government make the provinces understand that they must implement programs that are accessible to youth? The provinces and the federal government need to discuss this issue, but many factors must be considered.

I'll go back to my question. Many of your observations fall under provincial jurisdiction, and we must avoid interfering with areas of provincial jurisdiction. What can we do to help the provinces understand that they must implement programs to help immigrant youth access a legal career and to generate interest in the field?

[Daniel Boivin]

You are absolutely right in saying that there are a number of areas for action that pertain directly to matters of provincial jurisdiction. There are of course differences among the provinces in the way the system is designed, but there are nonetheless a great many points in common. All common law jurisdictions have essentially the same justice system, apart from a few differences.

In defining roles and with respect to providing information, however, there is a great deal of information that can be re-used with a few differences from one province to another, outside of Quebec. The roadmap does in fact focus on immigrants coming from common law jurisdictions.

The creation of a database, a system that would apply everywhere would therefore provide a solid foundation that the AJEFs could then adapt to the specific reality of their province. The site CliquezJustice.ca began in Ontario with the careers in justice initiative, which is an education tool. Designed for the Ontario network, this tool has been so successful that it has been adapted to all the provinces with very few changes.

This is an example of networking that shows how a bit of money can be used to benefit everyone. We would like to be able to create better synergy by having everyone work together. The government has an important role to play to facilitate this synergy. Each province will of course have to play a role in this kind of initiative since education falls under provincial jurisdiction. With a good foundation as part of a federal network, the work flows much better.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I have a quick question. I will ask in English but feel free to answer in either language.

You mentioned new francophone Canadians not seeing a legal career as a potential career choice. We had a little bit of a discussion with departmental officials and they mentioned that one of the things they want to see happen is encouragement of foreign students to remain in Canada after their studies are complete.

Do you see that happening? How might we improve that with foreign francophone students being encouraged to remain in Canada and perhaps pursue a legal career? Do you see that happening, and if not, how could we improve matters to ensure that those who come to Canada with a francophone background are encouraged to stay?

[Daniel Boivin]

It's a very interesting question. I mentioned that there are two populations, two needs, that have been identified in the study. In one of the sectors, there's very little need for information, and a lot of the foreign students coming to Canada for advanced legal studies, for instance, would be in a group that requires less intervention. They very often want to use the bijuridical model in Canada to import certain very interesting notions into their countries, perhaps because they are now faced with common law and with international commerce coming into a more civilian jurisdiction. It would be difficult to keep these people in Canada, because they come here to get knowledge they can use in their own countries, and that's a very positive import for Canada.

In the second population, those with higher needs, the problem is not that they go away after their studies. The problem is that they don't access all the fields of justice. We need to give them information from a very young age to tell them justice is an interesting area to get into. We need to dispel some of the negative myths that could exist in those communities because of perhaps negative interactions with the authorities and convince them to be in this field and be an example to the younger members of their community. The issue is not them leaving; it's just entering that field of education.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Darrell Samson has the floor.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Hello, Mr. Boivin.

I am happy to have you here as a witness before the committee. As my friend Mr. Arseneault pointed out earlier, I know that francophone jurists have to work very hard, to travel, and so forth. I know an expression from the education field. As an Acadian or a francophone in a minority community, you have to go to bed later and get up earlier to survive. You can quote me on that.

You spoke in detail about how to influence people in the area in question. I am interested to know what role you play in recruiting francophone immigrants to Canada. That is one stage. Perhaps you play no role at all, I don't know. I would like to know if you play a role at that stage.

Moreover, once they come to Canada, what role do you play to get them interested in living in French and then using services in French? Those are my two questions.

To place this in context, a great many refugees have come to Canada. Does your association play some role in influencing and attracting people to Canada? Do the organizations in question make efforts in the relevant provinces?

Third, are these organizations helping with refugee integration or in the use of services? I know it is rather complex.

[Daniel Boivin]

That is a very interesting question.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to this question.

One of the things that contributes to Canada's excellent reputation is that our society is founded on the rule of law. In my personal experience, one of the very important features that attracts newcomers to Canada is that our society is founded on the rule of law and provides legitimate recognition of minorities.

Parents who have chosen Canada as a new home for their children and who come here have great respect for the legal system. The legal community does not have to go to other countries to encourage people to come to Canada. It is certainly a major factor that attracts people.

As to the influence our association has in specific situations, such as the influx of refugees, this kind of crisis is of course sudden: it is not something that is anticipated 5 or 10 years in advance. In general terms, the legal community, both francophone and anglophone, did mobilize—I am not limited to speaking about francophone communities only—to facilitate their immigration. Clinics offering pro bono services were created and many lawyers were trained on specific issues related to refugees. That was one of the factors that made the operation a success.

In the francophone community, we had to adapt very quickly to the needs of certain incoming groups, groups of francophones arriving, or where the host community was francophone. We had to react quickly to make this one-off project a success. This was much easier in communities where resources were already in place, there was someone there to get organized and find the volunteers needed to offer the one-time service.

This is another example where having resources in place, if they are well-funded, makes it possible to adapt more quickly to an urgent situation in the community where everyone had to pitch in.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I would like to follow up on that.

Your association has spoken out on the issue of bilingual judges. So you take a position on issues that are important to francophone minority communities.

Do you have a position on the need for the Government of Canada to achieve the desired target for francophone immigration to Canada and the provinces? What role do you play in this regard? What could you do to help us more?

[Daniel Boivin]

The FAJEF has not taken a position on francophone immigration targets.

The legal community will be there to help the other players in the community to make sure this initiative works, that it is a success, and to help new Canadians integrate well. We know very well that informing these newcomers about our legal system is an important part of making it work. We see this at our legal information centres. That is the role we take on, to continue offering services to the general public at information centres in order to demystify things, to inform and guide people in order to make sure that the legal system is not an obstacle to their integration into Canadian society.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Mr. Boivin.

Mr. Choquette, you have the floor.