Evidence of meeting #48 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was questions.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:25 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP François Choquette
I know; time flies when you're having fun.
Mr. Samson, you have the floor.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
12:25 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP François Choquette
Allow me first to ask Mr. Boileau and Ms. Lanthier to answer the previous question.
Go ahead, Mr. Boileau.
12:30 p.m.
Commissioner of Ontario, Office of the French Language Services Commissioner
I have a lot of appreciation for my colleagues Power and Roy. I found their presentation very good, but we have to be careful. I don't want the committee to think that we can easily take a question from the short-form census and include it in the long census without consequences. The questions about the language that is spoken regularly or most often at home are important, particularly to enumerate the people whose first official spoken language is French, or according to the inclusive definition of a francophone, as per the IDF here in Ontario. We have to be very careful in this regard. This is where the work of statisticians, as well as the committee of experts you will be setting up, and Mr. Landry's recommendations, come in.
I simply wanted to express that little warning for the purpose of your analysis.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
12:30 p.m.
President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadiennes du Canada (FCFA)
I simply wanted to make a comment in the same vein as Mr. Power.
The best thing the committee could do would really be to ask the government and Statistics Canada to find the best way to calculate the number of rights holders.
We are not statisticians. We shouldn't get hung up on non-existent problems. We have understood that it is complex, but we have not understood that it is impossible.
The Statistics Canada representatives shared the challenges and difficulties, which is perfectly fine. However, that does not mean that there are no possible solutions. In my opinion, the message we should sent to Statistics Canada is to work on some solutions.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP François Choquette
Thank you, Ms. Lanthier.
I will now yield the floor to Ms. Lapointe for six minutes.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I find this morning's discussions very interesting. I must say that last week when we met with Mr. Corbeil and Mr. Landry, I was quite downcast.
Mr. Power, earlier you said that schools are instrumental in transmitting language and culture. Commissioner Fraser's report spoke at some length about early childhood. Would you also include early childhood?
12:30 p.m.
Partner and Sessional Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes indeed, Ms. Lapointe.
Some of the provinces...
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Earlier, you spoke of francization. Perhaps the rights holders would need to learn or to speak French more.
12:30 p.m.
Partner and Sessional Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Quite so, Ms. Lapointe.
In Manitoba for instance, the Public Schools Act gives francophones the right to build day cares that are attached to the French-language schools. In order to know how many spots are needed, the francophones have to be enumerated.
I will give you a very concrete example. Here in Ontario pre-kindergarten is fully funded, as is the case now for anglophones, but francophones were the ones who innovated in this area. In order to know how many spots are needed, we have to count the number of children.
You are quite correct. Early childhood education is also a part of this, as Mr. Boileau and ACFA mentioned in their presentation. That is also important in forecasting attendance at the post-secondary level. We need to know how many colleges and universities we need, be it in Toronto or elsewhere.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you.
I have another question, Mr. Power.
Earlier you said that the future of French outside Quebec was dependent on the federal level. We understand that the right questions also have to be asked in the census. We have to go further with regard to section 23. Is there anything else the federal government can do, aside from amending the census questions?
12:30 p.m.
Partner and Sessional Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, it could sign a strategic agreement with the school boards so that money will go into the pockets it should go into, and be spent correctly. We have to ensure total accountability and prevent the provinces from spending money as they wish when it comes to language and culture, without our making any decisions.
Those two initiatives, plus the court challenges program you just announced, together with sufficient funds, would help the communities in a measurable and significant way. And so, if in 20 years we celebrate with a glass of wine, we will have a better census that will allow for the transmission of better linguistic and cultural data.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you, that is very interesting. We have to be aware of what more we can do.
Mr. Roy, earlier we talked about the questions at some length. Last week we were told that there are too many questions in the census, and that it is impossible to increase that number to 11 questions.
Earlier, Mr. Boileau, you said that it was not necessary to remove questions. Should we add some? What questions would you remove to ensure that we comply with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in linguistic matters?
12:30 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
Let's clarify things. I do not recommend removing questions because there should be as many questions as possible. Ideally, all necessary questions should be there. The most important message is that constitutional rights depend on questions that are not in the census. So we must add them. They have to be in the mandatory form. For things to work, those questions have to be submitted to 100% of the population.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
So you would like the long-form census to be administered to everyone.
12:35 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
That is not really what I mean. At the least, we should add two short questions to the form that are not in it yet. I am talking about two questions, but statisticians will tell us that there will have to be two, three or four. We need questions to allow us to determine the language in which parents were educated, and their children. That must be added to the short form so that 100% of the population has access to it.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Are you including the grandparents as well? In Nova Scotia, according to Mr. Samson, French seems to have jumped over some generations.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
12:35 p.m.
President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadiennes du Canada (FCFA)
That is the case everywhere.
12:35 p.m.
Partner and Sessional Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Ms. Lapointe, the simple fact of adding one question for each adult on the language of instruction—theirs and that of their children—will allow lawyers and researchers, thanks to the cross-referencing of data, to obtain data on the grandparents. That is a good example of how we can obtain relevant data by adding one more question. We don't need 11 questions.
12:35 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
To conclude, the nine or ten first questions in the short form and the long form are the same. Obviously, when you talk about the long-form census, that also includes the questions in the detailed form.
12:35 p.m.
President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadiennes du Canada (FCFA)
I'd like to add something in that regard.
I think we're letting ourselves be too limited by the paradigm brought forward by Statistics Canada, that is to say that we seem to believe that it is not possible to increase the number of questions because Canadians will not want to answer more than 50 questions. I would like Statistics Canada to do an investigation on that to verify the accuracy of that claim.
