Evidence of meeting #48 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was questions.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Partner and Sessional Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
In addition, it makes no sense because subsection 16(3) of the charter encourages the Government of Canada to take action in that direction.
Conservative
Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
I have read the entire document.
Partner and Sessional Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
And also because part 7 requires it.
Conservative
Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Okay.
When we started our study, we did not think it would be that complicated, and it's not complicated when people want to co-operate. Let me go back to the provinces.
The provinces actually fall under the federal government. I would like to ask you a question about that. Do the provinces outside Quebec already have evidence-based data about every official language community?
My question is for Mr. Samson or anyone living outside Quebec.
I'm from Quebec. I don't deal with that, because at home, in Charlevoix, there are very few English speakers.
In terms of the reality you are experiencing in your respective provinces, do you have any data on those issues? Are they probative or not?
Partner and Sessional Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Let me be as concise as possible. Is there any other probative data that might be helpful? The answer is no. Minority communities are struggling because the census is not doing the work it's supposed to do.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP François Choquette
Thank you, Mr. Power. Unfortunately, this round of questions is over.
We will continue with Mr. Lefebvre.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My thanks to the witnesses for joining us this morning. This is the committee's fourth meeting on the issue. We know that it has been brought up again this year in light of the 2021 census and that the data are very important for francophone communities in Canada. My questions will cover a number of areas.
First, has the British Columbia case been appealed to the Supreme Court?
Partner and Sessional Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Each of the parties has appealed little aspects of the trial level decision. The case should be heard by the B.C. Court of Appeal this summer or fall.
Furthermore, for the purposes of interest to us, if we go back to the document, at the bottom of page 4, you will see the subheading 4 where Mr. Roy and I have indicated the most relevant passage from the ruling.
If you look at the bottom of page 5, you see paragraph 6659. We have highlighted the words “I declare that”. That was not taken to appeal. So it's a final judgment. The Government of British Columbia did not bring that to appeal. We have a final judgment and the province is asking for your help to enforce it.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Thank you.
My understanding is that, in Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique v. British Columbia (Education), the Supreme Court of the province ruled that the provincial government was responsible for collecting data on the province's rights holders under section 23 of the charter. However, you have shown that, in subsection 91(6)—
Partner and Sessional Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
British Columbia is facing serious problems. There have been all sorts of grievances, and the decision of the school board and the parents' federation was to sue the provincial government. They should have also sued Statistics Canada to obtain such an order. We have to choose our battles. We can't do everything at once.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
In my view, this ruling is a bit confusing. It states that the province is responsible, but you have just said that it's up to Statistics Canada to find the information, hence the importance of today's meeting.
Lawyer, As an Individual
Allow me to add one more thing.
It is all well and good to issue a statement, but there's also the practical aspect of implementation. The fact remains that, regardless of the right, actually obtaining concrete, sufficient and reliable data would essentially require the province to conduct a census, but that doesn't work. So the responsibility lies with the federal government.
NDP
Commissioner of Ontario, Office of the French Language Services Commissioner
That's basically the issue.
First, section 8 of the Constitution Act,1867 mentions the responsibility of the federal and provincial governments to hold a census on a regular basis. I have Mr. Power's document. In terms of co-operative federalism and the fact that the provinces have that responsibility, we still need raw data through the federal census.
In response to Mrs. Boucher's question, all the provinces—Ontario at least—use raw census data to establish the numbers. The provinces ask questions and, with the raw data, they can determine how to use that data. However, the raw data have to be accurate. That's the purpose of the census questions.
Liberal
Paul Lefebvre Liberal Sudbury, ON
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
This brings me to the second point I want to address this morning.
We hear a lot about the need to have raw data and about what will happen to our communities if we don't have them.
Let me turn the question around. Suppose that the census form has the right questions and we have access to the data we need. We have talked about British Columbia and the issue it has faced. What other province has had a similar issue? In Ontario, where I come from, there are a number of schools, but some regions don't have enough. The data also show that there are not enough schools in Saskatchewan, Alberta and the Yukon. What does that mean to you? What can be done about that?
Mr. Boileau, you said that the data will help the ministries of education to plan their workforces in light of the actual number of rights holders, which is very good. However, what can we do with the data other than going to see the government to say that we want new schools? Is that the only possible use for the data or can they be used for other purposes?
Lawyer, As an Individual
The application of section 23 depends on the number of rights holders. The higher the number of rights holders, the more rights the community has. This will be extremely important for school boards and for the ministries of education in their planning. If it seems that the number of rights holders warrants a larger workforce than anticipated, that will affect real estate planning, school construction, and so on. It will also provide better legal tools for communities if they have to go to court. This is sort of like killing two birds with one stone. It helps both with strategic planning and with rights, because it generates more rights.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP François Choquette
Thank you, Mr. Roy.
Mr. Lefebvre, perhaps you can continue later with other questions.
We'll take a three-minute coffee break.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP François Choquette
We are resuming the meeting.
I have signed up to ask questions, but I'll give you the rest of the time afterwards.
Let me start with a question for Mr. Boileau.
Mr. Commissioner, you said that Ontario has developed the inclusive definition of francophone, the IDF. Where did this idea or need come from? Is it because the census was not providing the province with all the information required to meet the needs of its rights holders? What does the inclusive definition of francophone entail exactly?
Commissioner of Ontario, Office of the French Language Services Commissioner
Thank you very much for the question.
You question is interesting, since Minister Brison and Minister Joly have undertaken to review the Official Languages Regulations, specifically communications with and services to the public, which is addressed in Part IV of the Official Languages Act.
The Office began this process in 2005-2006 while I was working there as a lawyer. We travelled across Canada to review this. We wanted to present a special report to Parliament on this issue. Then there was a change in commissioner, who did not consider it a good approach.
When I became commissioner, I had these ideas in mind. What's more, it was the first recommendation in my first annual report that I submitted to the Government of Ontario. I recommended that Ontario develop an inclusive definition.
The IDF allows the use of the same raw data that I have just mentioned. The questions are the same. Ontario isn't asking different ones. What's different is Ontario's calculation method. The federal government might consider someone an allophone, while in Ontario that person would be considered a francophone. Let me explain.
Take as an example a Maghrebian family from Morocco who immigrates here. Arabic is the first language learned by the members of this family. They arrive in Ontario and are asked what their first language learned is. They respond that it is Arabic. We move on to the next question, which asks what language they speak regularly at home. If they say that it is Arabic and French or Arabic and English, they are considered allophones. They speak French, but they are considered allophones. Meanwhile, under Ontario's inclusive definition, they are considered francophones.
If a family says they speak Arabic, French and English at home, for statistical purposes in Ontario, half the time they will be considered francophones, and the other half, anglophones.
All families coming from Romania, Vietnam, Senegal, Mali or Haiti, for instance, and whose first language learned is something other than French, when they arrive in Ontario, they live in French. They participate in the activities of the francophone community, and they send their children to French-language schools. So why not consider them francophones?
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP François Choquette
Thank you very much, Mr. Boileau.
I'll now turn to the FCFA representatives.
Why is it so important for your organization to properly count rights holders? Is it a priority for the FCFA to ensure that rights holders are adequately counted? Why is it important to maintain or increase the vitality of francophone communities?
President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadiennes du Canada (FCFA)
Thank you for the question.
I will briefly go back to what Mr. Landry told you about the importance of early childhood and education.
If we look at this as concentric circles, we can see how essential this is for the transmission and vitality of the language. As we know, French-language schools and early childhood play a crucial role. The number of these people in the communities is also important. Everyone counts. It is important to be able to identify each person who is likely to have the right to attend a French-language school and to participate in all the activities that take place in French in our communities. In some of them, the French-language school or school-community centre is where the vitality of the language emerges. In some villages, the school is practically the only place where you can organize activities and live in French.
In my opinion, the attractiveness of the school is important. The same is true for the ability to identify these people and then act on their desire to remain francophone, to live in French and to enrol their children in a French-language school. Lawyers express this in terms of rights, while we talk about community development and activities that can be implemented to ensure that French is present in the public arena and is seen as a worthwhile language. This is what attraction can do.
In terms of where these people are, it helps us to determine what clients we are actually addressing, where the people are that we are missing, and how we can reach them. Based on what we currently know, half of all rights holders do not send their children to a French-language school.
Is that true, or are there more? It seems to me that we should know this.
President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadiennes du Canada (FCFA)
I would like to answer—
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP François Choquette
Unfortunately, my time is up. I wouldn't want to take unfair advantage of the situation.
We'll now move on to Mr. Samson, who will have six minutes.