Official Languages Committee on Oct. 31st, 2017

[Marc Hamel]

Broadly speaking, the process works as you just described. Every area of expertise reviews its own parts, whether it be the method, IT, subject matter experts, or people who create the tables to be posted on the Internet, or the various tools. Each of the teams reviews its part. We also have overall review processes. Things are done precisely as you described.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Does that mean that the report that contained incorrect data on the anglophone population was reviewed by a linguist?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Not exactly a linguist.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

It could, at the very least, be an expert in social science, political science, or anthropology, for example.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

They are linguistic demography experts. You should also know that—

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Did you establish a certain discipline? I am asking you the question in good faith. Since your institution has 5,000 employees, I imagine some form of discipline is applied in accordance with a pyramid model.

We now live in a society in which the people in positions of responsibility are virtually never held to account. This creates problems in our culture and does not set a good example for young people. We are truly living in a society of non-accountability.

Will you try to determine whether a division, or indeed a particular employee, failed to do the proper review work?

You are not the person concerned, Mr. Hamel. Since you are the director general, we can assume you are not the one who conducted the review. However, I imagine you or the chief statistician potentially have the authority to dismiss people.

Do you intend to apply some sort of discipline in a specific manner? As regards the error that was discovered, if it turns out that experts did not do their job, will they be reprimanded?

[Marc Hamel]

We do not discuss individuals but rather processes in a case such as this. If someone were dismissed every time an error was made, a lot of employees would be fired.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

However, it is—

[Marc Hamel]

Errors are rare. The processes are constructed in such a way that, when they do occur, we discover them before the data are released. In this instance, the errors were not discovered before the release.

In discharging my responsibilities, I want to ensure that the systematic or individual processes that should be in place and the methods that should be used to achieve a result are properly followed.

We have already conducted a review of those processes, and we will obviously be taking corrective measures. We have already taken the appropriate corrective measures to prevent this kind of situation from reoccurring.

Can I tell you today that this will not reoccur in the next 100 years? Absolutely not. As we mentioned, to err is human.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I understand.

[Marc Hamel]

We are not saying people should be careless. We will continue to ensure that all the systematic processes are in place to prevent this kind of situation.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to send your 5,000 employees a letter asking them in a diplomatic and positive way to be more vigilant because this must not happen again.

We are judging no one, and we are targeting no one. However, I am a former member of the armed forces, and they do not fool around there. Discipline is very quickly established, and, when you wage war, it works. When it does not work, it is because the government has not provided sufficient resources.

I imagine the census has always been conducted using computer systems. You mentioned the Dominion Bureau of Statistics, which existed before Statistics Canada. For issues as important as language issues, which may directly improve or undermine the welfare of any anglophone or francophone community in Canada, would it not be better to do the work by hand?

I know what I just said is extreme. However, I am a Conservative and I hate machines.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

And yet you are the youngest one here.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Incidentally, this is the first cell phone I have ever owned in my entire life.

When it comes to matters as important as this, should the work not be done by hand? Is it mandatory to use a computer system?

[Marc Hamel]

We live in an automated world. In an exercise such as the census, which concerns 36 million people in all kinds of communities and fields, there are enormous advantages in automating our processes.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I admit it would be an extreme job.

[Marc Hamel]

In Canada, the census is very complex. Automation enables us to do things that otherwise would be impossible. We have discussed issues concerning rights holders. If we did not have ways to optimize the use of technology so we can even consider asking these questions, it would be impossible to do so.

There are more advantages than disadvantages in using automated systems. It goes without saying that, when the organization does so, the onus is on it to ensure that the systems operate as planned.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Mr. Clarke.

I have a comment to make before going to the next speaker.

We were told that errors had occurred in the Phoenix pay system because it was a new system. However, yours is not a new system. I find it hard to understand how this kind of error can occur after so many years.

[Marc Hamel]

Some of the systems are not new, but some have to be rebuilt for every census because our questionnaires change. Then we have to make the necessary corrections to those systems to reflect the fact that the questionnaires have been updated.

A lot of data is handled and transferred to ensure that we ultimately get high-quality data. There are several stages: compilation and findings for Canadians, certification, and so on. Most of those stages are automated. Where that is impossible, they are performed manually. Consequently, parts of the work are indeed done manually.

In a case such as this, since Canada has 5,000 municipalities and tens of different variables must be cross-referenced, we will look for automated ways to do that cross-referencing. If it were done by hand, it could take us years.

We also try to see whether we can detect anomalies in the data before releasing them. Here again, once the lesson has been learned, we will make those systems more rigorous and smarter to prevent the situation from reoccurring.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Vandal.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Thank you very much.

You mentioned that the problem had occurred in several thousands of cases outside Quebec. What was the exact number?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I do not have the exact number, but it was between 2,000 and 3,000 cases. If memory serves me correctly, it was 2,500 cases.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Was the error corrected in all those cases?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Yes, absolutely. Everything was corrected. As my colleague Mr. Hamel said, we reviewed all processes from top to bottom. The data were processed by the programs again, and we did all the necessary verifications.