Official Languages Committee on Nov. 30th, 2017

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you.

I'm very pleased to be here today as possibly the one and only around the table who is English-speaking only. French was taught in my school when I was in junior high, but there was nowhere to practise the language. I'm from Saskatchewan, and at the time.... I can tell you that I can still say “je suis dans la salle de classe” and “fermez la bouche”.

However, I am hoping to learn.

Learning when you are very young is very important. I appreciate that this is about protection of official language minority communities, not necessarily in thinking to broaden those who can speak both languages. Believe me, being on the Hill now, I appreciate this as something that is very important.

I would like to say at least that in Saskatchewan we have a very strong immersion program. As well, my daughter's four children, who are taught at home, are learning Latin, Hebrew, and French. Again, it's that young age that makes such a difference.

I have two very brief questions. The first is around the $1.2 billion over three years to the provinces. Is it around $400 million per year? Anyway, I just wonder how this is determined when you see that there are one, two, three, four already in bilateral agreements. Are they already receiving this funding, or is this new funding that's going to be sent out?

Then when you look at $1.2 billion and the number of provinces—of course, Saskatchewan and Quebec are not part of this either—how are you determining how much money is going to be protected to go where?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's a good question.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be very good in Hebrew or Latin or any of the languages your family is learning. However, I'm better at numbers.

When it comes to numbers, it's $1.2 billion over three years, as you correctly stated. That starts in 2017-18, and that's why we are working so hard with all the remaining provinces and territories to make sure these agreements are signed.

There are carry-over provisions, which means that not all the dollars need to be 100% spent over each of the three years. The first year can be below 100%. That's why we have a little flexibility. It means that for Saskatchewan, Quebec, Manitoba, and all the other provinces and territories, we need to proceed at a quick pace.

In addition to the $1.2 billion, there is $300 million for indigenous early learning and child care funding and the framework. We are also working with the Métis, first nations, and Inuit to have indigenous early learning and child care arrangements with them so they can use these resources to develop those services for their families and communities.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I know Quebec has a very strong child care program. At the same time, it is very expensive, with long wait-lists. What portion of the province would the English official language minority communities be? If Quebec is struggling with that side of things, how realistic is it that we would see this kind of program implemented there? The funding requires the work of the province as well.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Very good.

However, something you said is not exactly right. The waiting lists in Quebec used to be quite long a few years ago, but with the maturation, the development of its system, the waiting lists are now considerably shorter. In some cases, there are no more waiting lists. It's accessible and still affordable, although the rates have changed slightly, and there's a considerable investment in quality early learning and child care.

Because of this considerable asymmetry between Quebec and the other provinces and territories when it comes to early learning and child care services, Quebec will have its own bilateral agreement, as with all the other provinces and territories, which gives Quebec more flexibility. Resources will have to be targeted for direct services to children and families, but not necessarily to early learning and child care, at least not in the way in which it's understood in other provinces and territories.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Mr. Généreux, you have time for a single question.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Minister, do I understand that Quebec will receive full compensation? Is that what you are saying?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

As is the case for the other provinces and territories, the federal government cannot send a cheque without an agreement. That is absolutely necessary. And so, there must be a bilateral agreement with Quebec also, but it will be an asymmetrical agreement for the obvious reason that the day care services in Quebec are very different from elsewhere in the country.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

And most importantly, they are already in place.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Yes, indeed.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Your time is up, Mr. Généreux.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Arseneault, from New Brunswick.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have one question, and then I will give the rest of my time to our early childhood and education expert from Nova Scotia, Darrell Samson.

First of all, thank you for being here, Mr. Minister and Mr. Murphy. Congratulations on your initiatives.

I have a really practical question about the negotiation of those bilateral agreements. I do not want to know any state secrets, if there are any. However, we have heard a lot of testimony, here and in other contexts, from organizations representing minority communities. They have often talked about services run by and for the people involved. In other words, the money from the federal government must truly be used to meet the real needs, and must truly be managed by the stakeholders, the people who really need it.

I know that we are talking about agreements between the provinces and territories and the federal government, so we are talking about the ministries of education, early childhood and the family. In your negotiations with the provinces, do you feel that organizations representing minority communities have been able to share their side of the story with their provincial or territorial governments as part of those negotiations?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Arseneault.

It is actually a joint responsibility. On the federal government's side, we have made sure to listen to organizations with experience on the ground. Those organizations are well versed in how educational child care services can support minority language communities. This consultation and listening exercise has been conducted very carefully and will continue over the next few years because the agreements are for three years. Everyone knows that we will be back at the bargaining table in three years. We can then see how things went and, if they could have gone better, we will correct the situation. It's an ongoing commitment, because we know full well that things improve over time.

Furthermore, the provinces and territories have all acted in good faith. We ensured that the symmetrical exercise was done and that the provinces and territories were also listening to their minority communities. Most of the time, it had already been done. In some cases, we had to do a little better than what has been done before, given the tripartite nature of those agreements, which require the participation of the federal government, the provinces and all those on the ground. I would say that it went well. That said, it's just starting as an exercise. This is the first time in Canadian history that the Canadian government has committed to supporting this work with the provinces and territories, and I think it will continue to improve in the coming years.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you very much.

I will now give the floor to our friend Darrell Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you once again for being here, Mr. Minister.

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

You have three minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

That's excellent.

I would like to point out how crucial the start is in the education system. Like me, you have worked in education, so you know that, in this area, the sooner the better. Learning is easier when it starts early. It's really crucial. It can help curb the assimilation we have been facing for a long time. I know that a lot of people, at the beginning, were not comfortable with the idea of children attending French school at the age of five, because that was the official curriculum and they were afraid that the children would fall behind because they had to learn the language. The fact that we introduced a program for 4-year-olds helped to better prepare children before they started school and to gain the parents' trust. The sooner this can be done, the better.

I remember that, in 2004, Ken Dryden, who was the minister at the time, promised to invest $5 billion over five years in early childhood. I'm sorry to say it, but we then lost 10 years with the party that came to power. It is unfortunate that we made no progress during that time. That said, we must start from where we are at today. I think this will slow down assimilation and truly make francophone schools more successful.

With respect to agreements, four provinces and territories have signed one to date. Can you tell me, without disclosing confidential information, how the negotiations are going? In your opinion, do the provinces seem interested in signing agreements like that soon?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Samson.

I think what you said was very good. You said that an early start was a better start. The sooner we start, the more likely we are to be in a better position in the end. Yes, this is the reality in our communities.

The provinces and territories are also happy with what is happening. I do not want to be partisan, but for the sake of transparency, I will say it anyway. The first federal, provincial and territorial meeting on social services, the culmination of the discussions on educational child care, took place in January 2016. I entered the room, I did not have time to say a single word and the officials of the provinces and territories all stood up and applauded me. I told them that I had not done or said anything yet. They told me that it had been 10 years since they had seen a federal minister responsible for social services and that they were so happy to see one again, because they would now be able to look toward the future and intelligently discuss an issue they consider important.

It is important because the provinces and territories also need political support. I am not talking about partisan support, but about political support. We do not want to be partisan. It is about providing political support so that the provinces and territories can tell their people that it is important for them to invest in early childhood and that they have the support of the Canadian government to help them do so. All the provinces and territories welcome the fact that the Canadian government is a partner. We get along well, we work together and it is well regarded. Canadians want to see that governments are able to work together.

Of course, officials have some work to do to get things right, but surprisingly—in any case, I was personally surprised in January 2016—the fact that the Canadian government is back is in itself very good news.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

We are back to the Quebec City area with Mr. Généreux.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, one aspect has changed a lot in the past 10 years, and it has to do with immersion programs. Between 2003 and 2013, enrolment in immersion programs increased by almost 40%. I have a niece who teaches immersion. My sister also taught immersion in Vancouver for a number of years. They saw people standing outside schools for almost 48 hours to get a place for their children. In my opinion, that's excellent news, as there have been almost 400,000 students in recent years. It's really remarkable. The fact that there is so much passion for French in the English-speaking Canadian provinces is increasingly showing the relevance of bilingualism in Canada. We just have to look at some of our colleagues here who regularly take English or French classes to improve their language skills.

In the next 2018-23 roadmap, is any money earmarked for immersion schools under the agreements?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Before I answer the question directly, I would like to say that learning a second language is always a very good thing for a child, since it stimulates intellectual development, opens the mind and allows all kinds of contacts afterwards. However, it is important that the mother tongue can also be preserved and developed, so that the child feels able to work, live and grow in his or her mother tongue.

In the case of immersion schools, that is not the goal. The federal plan is not to support immersion schools, but rather to support families and communities in minority language settings.

We were asked the question. Some provinces asked us whether they could use the investment for English-speaking children in a majority setting. The answer is no, because it is not the purpose of the plan.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

You have about a minute left.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I would like to come back to one of the important issues we talked about earlier, the initial issue of accountability. A number of organizations, such as RESDAC, an organization that helps francophones living in minority communities across Canada, are in a financial predicament. In my opinion, those organizations are essential to the development of community organizations.

The plan you are presenting is inevitably connected to young people. However, in general, are there any special amounts set aside for those community organizations?

Perhaps Mr. Murphy could answer the question.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The answer is yes. In the plans that are already available and in those that we are developing, the provinces determine exactly which local organizations they will work with.