Evidence of meeting #20 for Official Languages in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was english.
A recording is available from Parliament.
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you, Mr. Castonguay. I'm sorry, but time is up.
Mr. Beaulieu, it's your turn. You have the floor for the next five minutes.
8:10 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
My first question is quite general. If French were the common language in Quebec, just as English is in Ontario and elsewhere in Canada, do you think that language transfers might be more toward French and thus maintain the demographic weight of francophones in Quebec?
8:10 p.m.
Retired Professor, As an Individual
We wouldn't be able to ensure the demographic weight of francophones that way because immigration isn't strong enough. Their weight will decline, but the weight of English would fall proportionately. What we've been experiencing for 15 years, since the 2001 census, is that the weight of French is in decline both as a mother tongue and as the language spoken at home, and the weight of English has remained steady as a mother tongue and slightly increased as the language spoken at home. Consequently, there is a linguistic imbalance that we could remedy by taking action, as you proposed, and reverting to the first version of the Charter of the French Language, which was really a coherent whole. I'm convinced that would do the job. That's the big push we have to make today. Canada should encourage Quebec to head in that direction because it would help maintain the English-French linguistic duality of Canada as well.
8:15 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Under Bill 101, government services were to be provided for everyone in French, with special exceptions for Quebec anglophones. However, we've gradually returned to full bilingualism. Consequently, if, as you said, we returned to the spirit of the original Bill 101, I think we could make French the common language and the language of inclusion for newcomers.
Earlier Mr. Sabourin asserted something along those lines, saying that the territorial model might be able to guarantee the future of French. That's in fact somewhat the way it is in the rest of Canada, where the percentages of language transfers to English are so high that, even if anglophones' demographic weight declined slightly, they would ultimately still catch up because it's 99% [Inaudible—Editor].
8:15 p.m.
Doctor in Demography, As an Individual
Mr. Beaulieu, you asked what would happen if Quebec were as francophone as Ontario is anglophone. We're actually very far from that situation. Quebec is Canada's most Canadian province because English and French are very strong there. I'd even say English is stronger. Anglophone institutions in Quebec are very strong. There are colleges and universities. In downtown Montreal, for example, you have McGill University, Concordia University, Vanier College and Dawson College in a relatively small block. There's no equivalent in Ontario.
8:15 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Under the Official Languages Act, the purpose of the entire official languages program for Quebec is to reinforce English in anglophone institutions. By doing that, does the federal government harm French and prevent French from being the common language?
8:15 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
For both witnesses.
However, Mr. Sabourin had started to respond. I'm, in a way, talking about the principle of institutional completeness, according to which the stronger a linguistic community's institutions are, the greater its language's power of attraction is.
Doesn't the overfunding of anglophone institutions—I mean by the federal government because we're at the federal level—undermine French as the language of integration?
8:15 p.m.
Doctor in Demography, As an Individual
The federal government intervenes in language policy in Quebec in two ways: directly through the Official Languages Act and indirectly via its spending power. That's something the federal government may consider less frequently, for example, when investing tens and hundreds of millions of dollars in research at McGill University and Concordia University. That funding is allocated to English-language research and develops the anglophone community and work done in English in Montreal.
8:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you, Mr. Sabourin.
Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor for the next five minutes.
8:15 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to our witnesses, Mr. Castonguay and Mr. Sabourin.
Mr. Sabourin, with regard to your last remark, I can't help but think that the federal government has used its spending power extensively, especially during this past year. However, I also plead guilty because we also brought pressure to bear in the case of several social programs during the pandemic, although I don't think that was exactly what you meant.
Mr. Castonguay, I listened closely to your presentation and was surprised by one sentence. I'd like to make sure I clearly understood, and I'd like to know how you think that would apply. I thought you suggested at one point that people should be prevented or discouraged from moving from province to province for linguistic reasons. Am I wrong? Please correct me if I was wrong.
8:20 p.m.
Retired Professor, As an Individual
No, I didn't mention interprovincial immigration at all.
8:20 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
All right.
That's fine. Perhaps I misunderstood your remarks. That obviously reassures me because I think it's very important for many people.
Mr. Castonguay, many people say it would seem that the administration of French-language instruction programs for immigrants, in particular, could be improved. The Fédération des travailleurs et des travailleuses du Québec, or FTQ, has even demanded that businesses with 50 or more employees establish priority francization committees so that workers can act as watchdogs for French in the workplace.
Do you agree with the FTQ that French-language education and professional French-language training should and must be a central tool in promoting French in Quebec?
8:20 p.m.
Retired Professor, As an Individual
I agree, but I'm also thinking of the proposal I submitted to you some time ago that we consider the idea of requiring newcomers to demonstrate adequate knowledge of French as a condition for obtaining citizenship. That's along the same lines, and it's the very first step toward a territorial approach that would distinguish Quebec from every other part of North America.
It's something you can do to help achieve that end in the very short term and that would have a significant impact on the newcomers' minds. They would be informed of that condition before they arrived. I'm sure they would act accordingly.
Between 2001 and 2004, Statistics Canada conducted a longitudinal study in which it monitored a large cohort of immigrants who had arrived in Canada in 2001. It may be concluded from the findings of that longitudinal survey—something that's rarely conducted and is very costly—that, among allophone immigrants, that is, those whose mother tongue is not an official language, who arrived in Quebec during that period, the majority of those who neither spoke nor understood French on arrival still did not speak or understand it four years later.
If they still don't four years later, I bet they can get by in English and their mother tongue, or in both, but they don't need to learn French, and the battle is lost. In reality, every immigrant to Quebec who is granted Canadian citizenship but only has knowledge of English is a slap in the face to Quebec francophones.
This makes it that much harder to live in French.
8:20 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you for repeating your proposal. I listened closely. I'm very pleased that Quebec has absolute control over economic immigration and the majority of immigrants.
As for your proposal, I have some serious doubts about its application in family reunification cases and in the refugee program, quite simply because those are the objectives of those programs, under which we have international obligations.
Mr. Sabourin, you said that the impact of immigrants who have learned French outside Canada and who are granted entry to Quebec or Canada will also decline over time. Could you tell me why the impact of francophone immigrants, French, Belgians, Algerians and Senegalese, will necessarily lessen over time?
8:20 p.m.
Doctor in Demography, As an Individual
Perhaps I misspoke. In fact, since Bill 101 was passed, wherever we have taken greater control over immigration and immigrant selection, the percentage of language substitutions in favour of French has gradually risen thanks to francization outside Canada.
On the other hand, there has been little improvement in francization here at home. The more we move forward, the smaller the percentage of French-language immigrants outside Canada will be relative to immigrants who are already here. The improvement we have seen in language transfers in favour of French has levelled off. We can see it in the figures: it's about 54% and won't rise much higher than 55% or 56%.
8:20 p.m.
NDP
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you.
I realize time is passing very quickly, but I have to monitor it.
For the last four minutes, I turn the floor over to Mr. Mazier, unless he decides otherwise.
Mr. Mazier, you have the floor for four minutes.
8:25 p.m.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Mr. Chair, with your permission, I'll take my colleague's place.
8:25 p.m.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
All right.
I'd like to thank our two witnesses for their moving testimony this evening. I'm fortunate to have been on the Standing Committee of Official Languages for many years, and I must say you both gave compelling testimony. I'd go so far as to say it's a revelation for the committee, a truly clear look at the situation of French both in Quebec and across the country.
Mr. Castonguay, I congratulate you on the way you spoke from your heart.
My two questions are as follows.
Can you leave the committee this evening with a message about Canada's role [Technical difficulty—Editor] in order to force open the French Canadian home.
My question for Mr. Sabourin is as follows: the impact of the Official Languages Act [Technical difficulty—Editor] of restorative and proactive measures. You suggested several. If it's possible in the time we have left, I'd perhaps like to hear what you have to say on that subject. I'd also like to thank you once again for your study, which I consider very important.
I want to repeat to you this evening that this is pivotal for the Standing Committee on Official Languages. It's a powerful observation of the state of French in Quebec and across Canada.