Official Languages Committee on April 22nd, 2021

[Rodrigue Landry]

I can answer that.

In 2020, Statistics Canada published a study based on its own questions and its test of the new census. It feels that with the addition of these new questions, which take the three criteria that define rights holders into account rather than only mother tongue, there would be 56% more rights holders. In some provinces, like Saskatchewan, there would be an increase of more than 80%. It's encouraging to see that there are more rights holders.

However, the major challenge is to not only enumerate them, but to get the children to school. The 2006 post-census survey showed that lack of access to schools, and distance, were the reasons often given by parents for having sent children to another institution.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Excuse me Mr. Landry, I have only a minute left, but I still want to hear from you.

Once we have the actual numbers, will we be able to settle the problem of what you call negligence by the community itself?

[Rodrigue Landry]

I wouldn't call it negligence on the part of the community. What we often see, as Mr. Forgues was saying just now, is that the schools being built are too small and it takes years to build them. This leads parents to make poor decisions.

With the new figures, we will at least be able to do better planning.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Arseneault.

You had 10 seconds left.

We are now going to start a second round of questions. The four next interventions will therefore be six minutes each. If any members wish to share some of their speaking time with other colleagues, they shouldn't hesitate to tell me.

I'll begin with Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

That's extremely interesting.

I, and no doubt a few others here, need some clarification about the term "overcompleteness" being tossed around here. Could Mr. Landry or Mr. Forgues explain this concept to us.?

[Éric Forgues]

I'll start, and Mr. Landry could finish.

I have never encountered the concept of "overcompleteness" in the literature. Things are either complete or incomplete.

One can speak about levels of institutional completeness in various sectors of life, but I could not really comment on "overcompleteness".

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Mr. Landry, I'm waiting to hear from you now.

[Rodrigue Landry]

That's not a concept I've ever heard about either. In minority communities, it would be very unusual to find "overcompleteness", because it's more likely to be the opposite.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

I'm not sufficiently erudite to define that word.

I'll go now to Mr. Jolin.

Mr. Jolin, you said that there were options for francophones in northern Ontario. You are working actively on this and I congratulate you for it.

I'll go over the recommendations quickly and then give you the floor.

You mentioned that it was important to have accountability. It was discussed. You would like the funds to be redirected to the University of Sudbury and for some French-language programs to be transferred there from Laurentian University.

Could you explain the mechanics of that? I know that the committee will return to it, but things appear to be evolving. I'd like you to talk about this aspect because we understand, as you were saying, that ties have been cut with Laurentian Universityx. We're going to get them, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

[Carol Jolin]

Transfers of this kind have occurred in the past. One example is what happened when Cité collégiale was established in Ottawa. Algonquin College had a wide range of programs in French, and these were transferred to Cité collégiale.

I think that we can use this kind of model successfully to transfer the French courses to the University of Sudbury. Of course, we will need assistance from both levels of government to effect this transition. I'm not talking only about costs here, but also teaching staff and infrastructures, because these are extremely important. There are already infrastructures in place, some of which were made possible through money from the francophone community.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Would you like this transition to occur in time for the coming academic year, in September 2021? Is that realistic? Do you have a timeline?

[Carol Jolin]

We've asked the provincial government for a one-year moratorium to give us time to do things properly.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Excellent.

My last question is for everyone.

There has been a lot of discussion about institutions.

Mr. Landry, You're a Quebecker and you live in Quebec. In that province, we can count on the state, which is our leading institution. Things are very different for francophones living in minority communities, and the importance of their francophone institutions, like schools and universities, is understandable.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about the importance of institutions in minority communities and how the new version of the act, by broadening a number of definitions among other things, could contribute to their vitality.

I'll stop there, but if I've understood correctly, what's really needed is an asymmetrical vision of official languages in areas where the status of French, in Quebec and elsewhere, might be described as "dominated"—I know that's a strong word—by English.

I'd like to broaden the discussion to hear your comments.

[Rodrigue Landry]

If we properly analyze the situation as it affects the linguistic vitality of communities and people, there is not necessarily any asymmetry. Each receives what it needs.

As for the institutions, I distinguish between two major types of institutions. There are what I call solidarity institutions, which nurture people's identity. These include early childhood centres, daycare centres, schools, postsecondary institutions, the media, and in some instances, workplaces. These are not only institutions, but living environments. People develop their identity by living in their language.

The second type of institution includes what I call status institutions. For example, there are health services, which put us into the public arena. These are not places where we become socialized in our language, but that inform people that they have access to services in their language. This nurtures subjective vitality, which nevertheless has some importance. To use a language, one must not only identify with the group, but also believe that one's language is worth being spoken. That's what subjective vitality is. And there are different ways of acquiring identity.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Good. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

We will now move on to Ms. Martinez Ferrada for the next six minutes.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses here with us this evening. I found their testimony truly fascinating. They said some interesting things that we are certainly not going to forget.

I'd like to hear you speak about immigration, because not much has been said about it. I believe that it would be important to discuss this subject. We heard witnesses earlier who have said that immigration is one of the key determinants of the vitality of the French language. According to them, immigration drives population growth, but the mother tongue of the vast majority of immigrants is neither French nor English.

What immigration strategies would you suggest to us to maintain demographic weight across the country?

What trends have you observed in the integration or inclusion of francophone immigration from one end of the country to the other?

Who would like to be the first to answer?

[Rodrigue Landry]

I could say a few words, but I'm not an immigration expert.

If families no longer have enough children to stabilize the population or have it grow, immigration comes into play. I find that we also tend to set targets. For example, in the white paper, I noticed there was talk about aiming at 4% for the Francophone population. When you aim at 4%, and things become very complicated, you end up with 2.5% or 3%.

What we should do here is imitate the National Hockey League. When a team is losing all the time, it gets to be first in line in the draft. That enables the team to get better. In other words, to keep things more balanced, you don't give the first draft picks to the team that won the Stanley Cup. The teams at the bottom of the heap get the top draft picks. It should be the same for immigration.

There are all kinds of figures out there about the number of francophones, and we know that those who speak only French tend to go to Quebec. They don't stay outside Quebec. So when it's difficult to recruit immigrants, I think we should aim higher for minorities, so that they get their share of the pie.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Landry.

Official language minority communities constitute important networks for the integration of immigrants.

Would you like to add any comments, Mr. Jolin or Mr. Hominuk, about the integration of immigrants into official language minority communities?

[Carol Jolin]

Through the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne, much is being done in terms of immigration and welcoming new immigrants into our communities. Just over a year ago, the Welcoming Francophone Communities initiative was launched. However, the program needs time to gain a solid footing. What I'm hearing has been very positive, thanks to a sound structure in place to help people.

It's a fact that many of the francophone immigrants who come to Ontario move mainly to the Toronto area. There are many organizations there to welcome them and it begins when immigrants arrive at the airport. At the end of November, It will have been two years since Toronto's Pearson International Airport introduced a kiosk that facilitates integration and familiarizes people with the francophone community by welcoming them and referring them to these communities. I think that we are on the right track.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Do you believe that the government could do more about reception and integration structures like these for communities that would like to keep francophone linguistic vitality strong, and for which immigration could become a useful tool?

Could we not in fact do more in terms of integration?

[Carol Jolin]

We can always do more. We talked about the three welcoming communities in Ontario, which is a first step. We could extend this type of program to other cities. People around the world are learning about this successful initiative, which could bring in even more immigrants, because they know they will be welcome and that we will work to integrate them and have them play an active role in the life of the community.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

In the cities you're talking about, is the immigration objective only for welcoming francophones or does it include meeting the economic needs of the cities? How would you describe it?

[Carol Jolin]

I can't remember how Hamilton, Sudbury and Hawkesbury were chosen, because those are the three we are talking about. These are not cities with millions of inhabitants. I think that one of the objectives was to enable immigrants to learn about places other than the Toronto area.