Official Languages Committee on June 3rd, 2021

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much.

You said that you were transparent about the magnitude of the crisis. Madame Joly said that she would have helped if she had been told, so I'd ask you, given what you know now, would it not maybe have been better to go above the local MPs and talk directly to the minister for FedNor? She said that she had the capacity to work with the province to help find a solution to this crisis at Laurentian.

[Robert Haché]

We did reach out broadly, in answer to your question, both federally and provincially. We absolutely did work with our local MPs as an important touchpoint. We have a strong relationship and an ongoing relationship with them, but we also reached out directly, and some meetings we were successful in achieving and others we were not. As—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

She said that she would have intervened and helped if she had been made aware. For me, we're looking at something that's been disastrous for our region, and we have a minister who said, “If I had been told, I would have been there.”

Mr. Lefebvre said publicly, “In the end, Laurentian has done this to itself, with the blessing of the provincial government...”. Yet we have the minister for FedNor, who said, “I would have helped if I had known.”

Given the magnitude of the crisis, why didn't you reach out to her and say, “We need your help now?”

[Robert Haché]

As I said, we did reach out federally as well as provincially, through our MPs and otherwise. Certain meetings we achieved, and others we did not. Hindsight can be 20/20. If we had been more aggressive, more successful, perhaps there might have been a change, but perhaps not, as well.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I totally understand. We're talking about a catastrophe that has occurred here. I heard my colleague who said that there is stuff, so maybe official languages, maybe we could look at these programs.... We're looking at an unprecedented crisis, where a university was plunged into bankruptcy protection.

Mr. Lefebvre also told people in Sudbury that there was “no big cheque...coming”. Madame Joly has put money on the table now. Would it have been better to have had the money on the table before rather than what we're dealing with in this situation now...?

[Robert Haché]

Again, given the current discussions, I think the efforts that the federal government is making and may be willing to make I think will be extremely helpful going forward—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I absolutely agree. I think Madame Joly really cares. I'm just surprised that she said she would have helped and that she was not told. You met with the local MPs. You said that you were transparent about it, that you explained the magnitude of the crisis to them. That was not passed on to the minister, who is the minister for FedNor for our entire region. I think this was a really tragic and lost opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Angus. That's all the time you had.

I want to inform members of the committee how the time we have left with the witnesses will be divided, as other guests will be joining the meeting during the next round of questions.

First, Mr. Godin and Mr. Serré will be entitled to four minutes each. Then Mr. Beaulieu and Mr. Boulerice will have two minutes each.

Mr. Godin, go ahead for four minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for their participation.

My first question is for Mr. Haché. I want to review the timeline. From what I understand, my colleagues from the government party in your region did a good job of representing you to the office of the Minister of Official Languages, Mélanie Joly, last December. A notice of intent was issued in February, and Laurentian University was visibly preparing for major cuts. I had a chance to meet with groups that were making submissions to allow us to intervene. In April, the hammer dropped and a number of French-language programs were unfortunately cut.

Before her testimony on Tuesday, the minister simply announced publicly that the sum of $5 million would be provided to assist Laurentian, once again implying that it wasn't the federal government's responsibility to assist postsecondary institutions.

Mr. Haché, I have to tell you I find it unfortunate that we're playing politics here. Paragraph 2(b) of the Official Languages Act provides that the purpose of the act is to

2(b) support the development of English and French linguistic minority communities and generally advance the equality of status and use of the English and French languages within Canadian society;

As can see, there was an ongoing operational problem between December and the moment when submissions were made by members of the present government. The minister came and told us that she had not been aware of the situation and that she would have intervened if she had been.

For my part, if I were to see that Laurentian University, or any other postsecondary institution, was running headlong into a wall, and if I wanted to protect both official languages in the minority communities, I would take action instead of hiding behind the division of federal and provincial powers. That's the minister's responsibility.

Mr. Haché, can you tell me how you interpret the actions of the Minister of Official Languages in the Laurentian University file?

[Robert Haché]

Thank you for your question.

I can only repeat that we have had many conversations at both the federal and provincial levels. I acknowledge the division of responsibility for university education between the two levels of government. We did what we could during those conversations.

We plan to continue working with the federal and provincial governments to secure a sustainable and productive future for Laurentian University.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you.

What I understand is that you don't want to state an opinion on the fact that the minister wasn't necessarily very proactive. She hasn't demonstrated leadership in this matter. I understand and respect the fact that you're in a delicate situation.

My next question is for Ms. Chouinard.

I hope you have the time to answer this time. You said that 37% of people 15 years of age and over had a university degree in 1981 and that the figure is 65% today. What we can see is that the student clientele enrolling in postsecondary studies has nearly doubled. So there's potential here.

Why hasn't Laurentian University managed to take advantage of this excellent opportunity to increase student numbers significantly and thus achieve a degree of sustainability?

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

I'm not sure I'm the person in the best position to answer that question.

What Mr. Haché said is that Laurentian's francophone clientele was growing. What I know—this isn't my institution—is that Laurentian lacked size in…

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Pardon me, Ms. Chouinard, I went to the wrong witness. I thought you were with Mr. Haché.

I apologize for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Godin, your speaking time is up.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Pardon me, Ms. Chouinard.

Things aren't going your way in committee today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

We will continue. Mr. Serré has the floor for the next four minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have to confess that I was deeply disturbed when I heard the news about Laurentian University's cuts. My colleague Paul Lefebvre and I were aware of budgetary concerns. However, they were far beyond what we had imagined, and we certainly did not see this going through the CCA process. It was tough and it hit the heart of Greater Sudbury.

Like many of you, we reacted emotionally. Laurentian is such an important post-secondary institution; it's much more than just bricks and mortar. Laurentian is a community of people who contribute to economic development and to cultural, economic and educational wealth. It's a really hard sense of loss and tragedy for the faculty and students who are pursuing their passions.

Mr. Haché, you mentioned that there was no department for postsecondary education in Ottawa. All proposals have to go through Queen's Park. Based on your experience, can you confirm that the federal government can't grant operating funding to you directly without going through the province?

[Robert Haché]

Yes, I believe that's true.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus has already left, but I'm going to ask you the following question, Mr. Haché. Mr. Angus has been a member for many years.

The lobbying register shows that he has never met with Laurentian University or you.

Can you confirm whether Mr. Angus has met with you or your predecessor for any support or any proactive support for the Laurentian University, yes or no?

[Robert Haché]

All I can say is that I have not had the pleasure of meeting directly with Mr. Angus in the time that I have been at Laurentian. I can't comment on my predecessors, unfortunately.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

The lobbying register shows that there have been no meetings.

As francophones from northern Ontario, we're going through a period of considerable linguistic insecurity and uncertainty. Mr. Haché, why did Laurentian University, which claims it's bilingual, cut its postgraduate instruction in linguistics programs, languages and literature?

[Robert Haché]

Thank you for that question, which is an important one.

All the programs we cut had very few long-term students. There had been two or three students per year in each of those programs over the previous 5 or 10 years. It was very difficult to support those programs even with the additional grants. In addition, classes with only two or three participants don't provide the best environment for students.

Laurentian didn't single out the programs that had to be terminated; it was the students who did so by showing a lack of interest in them year after year. We obviously retained the programs in which students were interested and that enjoyed high enrolment. This situation will also be an opportunity for us to establish new programs that are popular with students.

Lastly, it's important to draw a distinction between programs and courses. From a linguistic standpoint, in theatre and arts, for example, we will continue to offer a good range of courses. These are simply four-year programs that will no longer be offered at our university. However, we will continue offering exhaustive study programs in English and French. I should note on that point that we made cuts on both the English and French sides. There was no preference. The decisions we made were similar in both cases.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Haché. Thank you, Mr. Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I now yield the floor to Mr. Beaulieu for two minutes.