Official Languages Committee on March 23rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Good afternoon, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 11 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of Thursday, November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from health authorities, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person should follow the directives of the Board of Internal Economy.

I thank members in advance for their cooperation.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly.

When those participating virtually are not speaking, their mic should be on mute.

Should any technical challenges arise, please advise me immediately. Please know that we may need to suspend for a few minutes, as we need to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(f) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, January 31, 2022, the committee is undertaking its study entitled Mandate, Priorities and Pressing Issues for the Minister of Official Languages.

I would now like to welcome today's witnesses.

First of all, we have Minister Ginette Petitpas Taylor, who is appearing before our committee for the first time as Minister of Official Languages. I am very pleased to have you here, Minister.

She is accompanied by Isabelle Mondou, Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage; Julie Boyer, Assistant Deputy Minister, Official Languages, Heritage and Regions; and Sarah Boily, Director General, Official Languages.

As you know, Minister, you will have a maximum of five minutes for your remarks, after which we will go to a series of questions. I will signal to you when you have about one minute left. The floor is yours.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Minister of Official Languages and Minister responsible for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone. I would like to start by acknowledging that we are joining you from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabeg nation.

It’s a pleasure for me to meet with the Standing Committee on Official Languages for the first time in my capacity as Minister of Official Languages. When the Prime Minister gave me this mandate, I was deeply touched.

As you know, I’m Acadian—the first Acadian to hold the position of Minister of Official Languages. So, I personally know how important it is to be able to speak your first official language every day. To study. To work. To live.

I know how important it is to live in a thriving community. And a thriving community is, above all, a community that can freely speak its first official language. This is true for Francophones and Anglophones in minority situations, and for everyone who supports our official languages. It’s a responsibility that I take to heart, and a responsibility that is at the heart of my mandate.

On March 1 ^st in Grand-Pré, I was proud to fulfill one of the most important parts of my mandate letter by introducing Bill C‑13, our legislation to modernize the Official Languages Act. I chose to introduce the bill in Grand-Pré because it is a place that reminds us of the fragility of our official language minority communities and the battles we have fought to protect the French language. The protection and promotion of French throughout Canada, including Quebec, and defending our official-language minority communities remain a challenge today, and we will seize every opportunity to respond to it with Bill C‑13.

However, that responsibility goes beyond just introducing a bill. Our government is committed to implementing the measures outlined in our reform document, English and French: Towards a Substantive Equality of Official Languages in Canada. Across the country, we’re helping to build and support institutions that help official-language minority communities grow and prosper. We’re improving access to French immersion and French second-language programs, from early childhood learning to post-secondary education. We’re working to increase the demographic weight of Francophones.

In this work, I have been fortunate to be supported by a Prime Minister and cabinet colleagues who share the same goal, and a parliamentary secretary, Marc Serré, as well as many parliamentarians, some of whom are here today, and members of this committee who are doing an incredible job.

As I have always said, we wanted a bill that reflected the linguistic realities of all Canadians, both Anglophone and Francophone. We wanted a bill that would meet the needs of official-language minority communities from coast to coast to coast and help them thrive. And we wanted a bill with more teeth. Bill C‑13 meets those objectives.

I know I have a lot of work to do, but I also know I can count on your support and your advice. I look forward to working with you and with all those who love our official languages and the minority communities that enrich our lives so much.

Once again, I'm happy to be here with you today and happy to answer your questions.

Mr. Chair, thank you for reminding us not to speak quickly as I tend to do just that. Don't hesitate to remind me if I do though, and I'll slow down.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Never fear, Minister. I'm not really used to people speaking quickly. You made your remarks in three and a half minutes, which proves that Acadians are very efficient.

However, let's get down to serious matters. In the first round, each party will have six minutes to ask questions and hear the answers.

To start off, I give the floor to our colleague the first vice-chair of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

You have six minutes, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here today.

You made your remarks efficiently. I hope we can be just as efficient in protecting the French language. We agree that the Official Languages Act should be modernized. However, French is the more fragile of the two official languages.

My first question is very straightforward. Do you acknowledge that French is currently in decline across Canada?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

That's a very important question, and I thank you for asking it.

Once again, I'm pleased to see you.

The bill is very clear: we recognize that French is in decline in Canada and Quebec. Statistics show that 6.6% of the population outside Quebec was francophone in 1971. According to the projections, that will fall to 3% by 2036. So that's a decline of 3.6 percentage points.

I repeat that we acknowledge that French is in decline in Quebec as well.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

Since you're used to testifying in committee, you know that our speaking time is limited. I don't mean to be rude, but I have more questions for you and plan to ask them in quick succession.

If Bill C‑13 came into force tomorrow morning, exactly how would it help halt the decline, flatten the curve and improve the situation of French in Canada?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

As you know, there will still be work to do, including regulatory work, once the bill receives royal assent.

We have to keep conducting consultations to ensure we can make the right regulations. Then there's the whole issue of positive measures. We have to make sure we clearly define what a region with a strong francophone presence is. Lastly, there's the matter of regulations respecting monetary penalties. That's the first step, once the bill has received royal assent.

I look forward to the bill receiving royal assent because that will enable us to move forward and begin the very important work of designing regulations.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

You said in your opening remarks that you were counting on our support. I would invite you to do the same, to be very open. I hope we can count on your support to improve the bill. You said it had teeth, but we don't think it's robust enough. Rest assured we'll cooperate with you in the hope you'll be as open as we are.

I have another question for you.

Why isn't the central agency, the Treasury Board, defined in Bill C‑13, as many organizations have requested. There are still grey areas between the Department of Canadian Heritage and the Treasury Board. Why haven't all the powers been centralized in the same place?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you for that question.

I'm glad you raised it because I believe there's still some confusion over the Treasury Board's role.

I've read the bill many times. Many stakeholders told us they want to ensure there's one central agency. Then the Treasury Board's role was clarified to assure us it would take on a central agency's responsibilities.

It's all well and good that the bill has teeth, but we have to make sure it's actually implemented. That's exactly what the Treasury Board will do. The Treasury Board's role will be clear: it will be responsible for implementing, evaluating, coordinating and verifying all work.

I'd like to say something else, if I may. Supplementary funding has been allocated to the Treasury Board under the budget so it has the necessary resources to do its work.

Lastly, there's the matter of the Department of Canadian Heritage. In my capacity as Minister of Official Languages, all my responsibilities are delegated to me by the Department of Canadian Heritage. I believe there's some confusion over the words "Canadian Heritage". In actual fact, the work is delegated to the minister responsible, but the central agency role nevertheless falls to the Treasury Board.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

You haven't convinced me, Minister, but I respect your answer.

The new subsection 2.1(1.1) introduced by the bill states:

2.1 (1) The Minister of Canadian Heritage is responsible for exercising leadership within the Government…

You say the agency would report to the Treasury Board, that the minister would report to the Minister of Canadian Heritage and that the latter would have a principal role to play in implementing the act. There's some confusion here, so and I'll ask you question once again.

Why have so many language rights advocacy organizations in Canada so convincingly made this request?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have 50 seconds left.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I've spoken to many stakeholders who are very satisfied with our bill, which clearly outlines the Treasury Board's central agency role. I've also spoken to lawyers, who are very pleased…

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Pardon me, Minister, but, as you heard, I had 50 seconds left.

I don't have the same take on the situation, and I'm not hearing the same comments from the organizations.

I'll ask a final question.

Why has the act respecting the use of French in federally regulated private businesses been separated from this act, which is quasi-constitutional? I think it weakens the act.

Would you please explain why you've done that?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have 15 seconds left.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Perhaps I can defend myself in the next round of questions. I'll be pleased to answer your question.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Minister and Mr. Godin.

Our next speaker will be Angelo Iacono.

Mr. Iacono, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister. It's always a pleasure to see our Acadian friends. I have to say that Quebec does things its own way. Oh, oh!

Minister, the work involved in modernizing the Official Languages Act has been ongoing for many years. You've been responsible for this portfolio since last October. Would you please tell us about your interactions with stakeholders representing official language minority communities and how those interactions have influenced the differences between Bill C‑32 from the last Parliament and Bill C‑13?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

It's always a pleasure to see you, Mr. Iacono. Thank you for that question.

I was appointed Minister of Official Languages about five months ago. From the start of my mandate, I've been privileged to meet many of my colleagues who are around this table, members of the opposition parties, senators and many stakeholders. I wanted to hear their comments on Bill C‑32 and find out what they'd like to see in its new version.

I've met many national and provincial groups. I met with the Société de l'Acadie du Nouveau-Brunswick, or SANB, because it's in my riding. I met with the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne, the FCFA, the Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario, or AFO, the Quebec Community Groups Network, the QCGN, and others. All those conversations gave me a lot of food for thought, and my thoughts were included in Bill C‑13, which we introduced three weeks ago.

I heard a number of people say that Bill C‑13 didn't include all the aspects that were in Bill C‑32. I want to state clearly that that's absolutely false. All the elements that were in Bill C‑32 are in Bill C‑13. However, we've gone even further. Stakeholders told me they wanted a more robust bill, and that's exactly what we introduced. I'd like to say I've met the expectations expressed in the comments we received from stakeholders. Here are a few examples.

I'd like to address the matter of the Commissioner of Official Languages. The Commissioner asked us for more powers and tools to do his job. We all acknowledge that the Commissioner of Official Languages, Raymond Théberge, is doing extremely important work to protect our official languages. However, the only power Mr. Théberge currently has is the power to conduct investigations and issue reports. So he wanted better tools to do his job, and that's precisely what we've given him.

We added tools in Bill C‑32, and, in Bill C‑13, we've also added administrative monetary penalties, which could be imposed on some federal institutions. In short, we want to ensure that our bill has teeth. We wanted to create a central agency, as was mentioned, since many stakeholders I spoke to raised the issue. That's precisely what we've done.

I genuinely hope we can work closely together to adopt Bill C‑13 as soon as possible since I'm really looking forward to continuing work on the regulatory framework. We definitely want to forge ahead.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you for those clarifications, Minister.

As you just mentioned, powers would be granted to the Commissioner of Official Languages. We gained a clear understanding of why they're necessary at our last meeting, with the Air Canada representatives, who weren't entirely in favour of the idea of administrative monetary penalties.

My next question is this. The government has made reconciliation with indigenous peoples the centrepiece of its agenda. A key part of that effort has included the protection of indigenous languages. In 2019, the government passed the Indigenous Languages Act, and I would emphasize that nothing in Bill C‑13 repeals the rights associated with indigenous languages. Would you please elaborate on that subject?

Have you discussed your modernization of the Official Languages Act with the Commissioner of Indigenous Languages?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you for that very important question.

As Minister of Official Languages, I wanted to be sure I did nothing to undermine Bill C‑91, which was introduced to protect indigenous languages and has now become law. You can see very clearly at a number of places in Bill C‑13 that we would be doing nothing to undermine indigenous languages. We recognize that we have 70 indigenous languages in Canada, and we want to be sure they can thrive too.

I had the good fortune to meet the Commissioner of Indigenous Languages, Ronald E. Ignace, and we had a very constructive conversation. We agreed to meet again because we want to work together. If there's anything that we can pass on to him, advice or details on the work the Commissioner of Official Languages is doing, or if he wants to learn from our experience or draw on our strategies, we're prepared to work with him. He left with a clear understanding of our approach, and it was a very good meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll yield my time to the next person.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Iacono.

Our next speaker is the second vice-chair of the committee, Mario Beaulieu.

You have six minutes, Mr. Beaulieu.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Good afternoon, Minister. Thank you for being with us.

The Quebec government has made its demands regarding the modernization of the Official Languages Act. The first of those demands was that the act recognize that only one of the two official languages, French, is in the minority. That's not what appears in Bill C‑13. There's a statement of principle, but you still consider that anglophones in Quebec constitute the official language minority. I'd like to hear your comments on that subject.