Official Languages Committee on Oct. 8th, 2024

[Jean-Luc Racine]

I would add that we have to ask the provinces to be clearer in the action plan they present as per the terms of the agreement. Things need to be really clear.

In addition, the federal government must make the provinces understand that we have different ways of doing things because we are a minority.

I'll give you an example. In Prince Edward Island, in Charlottetown alone, 150 children are on the waiting list for a French‑language child care service. One way to improve the situation would be to set up francophone home child care services. However, the government says it can't grant us that funding because anglophones haven't asked for it. If anglophones haven't asked for it, they're not going to give it to us. However, that's what we need. If anglophones don't get a space for their child in a certain child care centre, they can always have access to another. That is not the case for us francophones. We can't do that. So there are 150 children on the waiting list, and there are no home child care services because the government refuses to fund a home child care association.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Labelle or Ms. Girard, do you have any comments on that?

[Denis Labelle]

I would just like to confirm that we need very specific clauses. Without that, we lose the battle from the outset.

I can say that in Ontario, the government does consult. When the government receives funding, sometimes it will invite us to discuss it. However, we never see an action plan come out of consultations. We always have to do a follow-up. Of course, there has to be political pressure. We are not the masters in our own house, even today, despite all the strikes we have conducted in Ontario over the past 50 years in order to have our French schools.

I'm jumping from one topic to another, but I'd like to come back to the challenge presented by the labour shortage, which was mentioned earlier. French immersion schools and the funding granted to them are managed by anglophones. Where do you think they are getting teachers from? They come and get them from us. This is a factor that contributes to the shortage of teachers in the francophone system, both on the public and Catholic sides.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Labelle.

I will now turn to the representatives of the Commission nationale des parents francophones. I have a very quick question.

What are the repercussions on funding when rights holders are enumerated rather than estimated?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That's an excellent question, but you'll have to come back to it a little later, if you have the chance.

Mr. Serré, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses. They've already given us a number of recommendations.

As Mr. Samson mentioned, what we're doing is truly historic. This is the first time that all the elements of the education continuum—early childhood and primary, secondary and postsecondary education—are grouped together in a single study.

My comments will be brief, because I really want to let the witnesses continue to foster the discussion.

My first question is for Mr. Labelle and Ms. Girard.

I was appointed a school trustee in Ontario in 2000, shortly after the creation of the individual francophone school boards in 1999. We're talking about per‑student funding, which you find hugely flawed. Could you give us some recommendations in that regard?

You talked about geography, limited resources and distances. Have you made any specific recommendations to the province to change the core funding formula for francophone minority communities, which is based on the number of students?

[Denis Labelle]

Thank you, Mr. Serré.

In Ontario, there are two systems: Catholic schools and public schools. We all have to work together if we want to survive.

Right now, we are working together on transportation consortia. It didn't make sense to have four buses on the same street, two separate buses for English and French Catholic schools and two separate buses for English and French public schools. So we worked together and we managed to save a lot of money, which we then redistributed to the schools.

I don't know if Ms. Girard could add to that.

[Isabelle Girard]

I'm sorry, Mr. Serré, can you repeat your question?

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

I was saying that the provincial funding formula is based on the number of students, which penalizes francophone school boards.

[Isabelle Girard]

Yes, absolutely. It's something we discuss with our provincial government on a regular basis. Unfortunately, we don't necessarily have the department's ear.

It is true that funds are given to francophone school boards to help them address certain specific challenges faced by francophones.

The fact remains that the average size of our school boards is 55,000 square kilometres, while that of the anglophone school boards is 5,000 square kilometres. I talk about this all the time. Imagine 200,000 students in a very small geographic area and compare that to 2,000 students spread out over a very large territory which is twice the size of Belgium and has 200 municipalities. That's the reality of one of our four school boards.

Even though our per‑student funding is a little higher, it's impossible for us to meet our needs. This funding model for our students is completely inequitable. Despite that, we still manage to achieve the best educational outcomes. Nevertheless, major concerns remain about our ability to maintain services in this context.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

You talked about the shortage of teachers and the number of spaces. What recommendations would you make to the federal government so that it can solve this problem with the provinces?

[Denis Labelle]

Ms. Girard is on the provincial committee, so it would be much easier for her to give you that information.

[Isabelle Girard]

There's a lot of work being done with our provincial government. This work is largely funded by the Canada‑Ontario Agreement on Minority‑Language Education and Second Official Language Instruction. What we would like to see is more control over funding and how it can be used.

A few years ago, we did a major study on the labour shortage in Ontario, and we made 37 recommendations. A strategy along with an implementation committee was established to respond to those recommendations. Since then, there have been a few gains. I can't say there haven't been any, but they are very limited.

If we had more control over how the funds were used and if there were more accountability, I think that money would allow us to go much further.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

That's perfect.

Time is running out. I have 30 seconds left.

I am very much involved with the Consortium Centre Jules-Léger. Thank you for your role in managing the institution. Deaf people who use Quebec sign language are in a double minority situation. Could you submit a report or recommendations to the committee specifically on Quebec sign language? I am very interested.

Mr. Racine and Ms. Anderson, can you provide a table that would describe funding models in all the provinces? You talked about the gaps in British Columbia and the 70% test. It would be good to have a table that shows shortcomings at the provincial level before starting to paint a national picture. Could you please submit that to the committee?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Serré.

Witnesses will be reminded at the end of the meeting of the additional documents you ask them to send.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Commission nationale des parents francophones did a study entitled “Où sont passés les milliards $?” several years ago. In that study, we found that a very significant portion of the funding for minority language education went to Quebec anglophones. I think it was 47.7%. Only about 29% went to francophones outside Quebec. We also noted that at the time, there were more francophones outside Quebec than anglophones in Quebec. Not only did anglophones start out with a school system that was already completely set up, but this school system was also overfunded compared to the francophone system. We were surprised at how the funding was distributed. It was also found that in terms of education in their mother tongue, francophones had to be satisfied with the immersion or core French programs offered to the anglophone majority, where they were quickly assimilated. That's how things were at the time.

Is there a more recent study on the same issue? Do you think things are very different now? I think the funding is more proportionate now in the case of anglophones in Quebec, who don't have the same needs at all, in my opinion. What has changed for francophones outside Quebec since then?

[Jean-Luc Racine]

Unfortunately, we don't have data and we haven't updated that study. We focused on certain sectors, especially early childhood. However, like our partners, we still feel that we need more funding.

What's unfortunate, however, and it's important to mention, is that there are additional costs associated with teaching French in a minority context, but that's not recognized, because everything is mixed up. Earlier, Mr. Godin asked us what the federal government should do. In my opinion, if there is one thing we must insist on, it is the issue of transparency. We need to be able to know exactly where the money is going, because it's difficult to know right now.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Basically, when—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Racine.

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Two and a half minutes go quickly.

Mr. Julian, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

When the NDP pushed hard for a bill on the child care system, Niki Ashton and Leah Gazan really ensured that there would be provisions to support minority language child care, especially French‑language child care. However, one of the problems is the shortage of French‑speaking educators in the child care system.

Is the federal government doing anything to address this labour shortage? I'm not just talking about day care centres, but also about teachers in the network of French‑language public schools in Ontario, for example. Is there a way for the federal government to ensure that enough people work in these networks? I understand the funding issue very well, but the labour shortage issue is also worrisome. Do you think the federal government has a role to play?

[Jean-Luc Racine]

In early childhood, the solution is international recruitment, and we're good at that. For example, in the Yukon, 80% of the workforce was recruited directly from abroad. In Prince Edward Island, it's the same thing. Among the Canadian provinces and territories, those are the two places where there are the fewest sustainability problems at the moment.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Can I ask where that labour is coming from?

[Jean-Luc Racine]

It comes from Belgium, France and certain African countries, such as Morocco. So our child care services are multicultural.

I understand very well that we want to try to limit immigration. However, we just learned this week that no exceptions will be made for child care. In other words, we are subject to immigration restrictions. That means that we will no longer be able to recruit internationally, or that we will be able to do so to a lesser extent. I told you earlier that child care spaces in Ontario were sitting at a 55% occupancy rate. As Ms. Girard mentioned, it's because of a staffing shortage. The only solution is to recruit internationally.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Racine.

I know it's stressful to see the chair making gestures, but there will be two short rounds of two minutes each.

Mr. Dalton, you have two minutes.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Mr. Labelle, you talked about demographic pressures on francophone schools.

Has the number of students decreased over the past 10 years, or has it remained stable? Tell us a bit about the role of immigration in all of this.