Evidence of meeting #121 for Official Languages in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was schools.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Leila Dance NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Did any of you do any research on the staffing shortages?
I just want to prepare for the next round. Thank you very much.
November 21st, 2024 / 12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal René Arseneault
Thank you, Ms. Dance.
Ms. Gladu, you have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to welcome the witnesses.
Ms. Chouinard, you described the current situation and the many difficulties. What actions does the government need to take, and what are the priorities?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
That's a big question.
First, under the new Official Languages Act, a francophone lens should be applied to new legislation. However, there are recent examples where this hasn't been done on the ground and where we've had to fight for it. That's what happened with the Canada Early Learning and Child Care Act. We had to turn to the Senate, because an amendment couldn't be made in the House of Commons to protect funding specifically for official language minority communities.
The Official Languages Act should be able to address such issues horizontally. These issues must be taken into consideration in the legislative drafting process, not when a bill is being debated. That would be a good step forward.
Furthermore, since we're talking about education here, and the federal government always has to do business with the provinces and territories, it's necessary to ensure transparency and accountability, through language clauses, so that we can have proof that the funding sent by the federal government to the provinces is being spent as it should be.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you.
My question for you, Mr. Bourgeois, has to do with your research and section 23 of the charter. It's a bit vague in the charter. It doesn't really say how many francophone or minority-language students you would need to have before you have to fund a school for them, and it doesn't seem to cover post-secondary or early childhood education.
If changes were to be made, what would you like to see changed there?
Researcher, As an Individual
I think the overall problem in the entire system, education-wise, is that the provinces do not respect their obligations. We usually refer to the exclusive powers of minority-language school boards, and we haven't even gone there yet. It's not even complete.
However, the biggest problem is that the provinces have obligations, according to Mahe and other jurisprudence, and they're not doing their job either.
Nobody has thus far sued the provinces or forced them to the table and said, “Listen, you have obligations to promote the official-language minority education system.” Regardless of the OLEP, they have that responsibility. Now if the federal government wants to help them do that, that's fine. If not, they still have that obligation, so that's probably one of the....
I'm trying to remember the second part of your question.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Since you studied the right to school management, it would be interesting to hear you talk about the link between section 23 of the charter, on the right to school management, and the current federal funding models. I would also like you to comment on the accountability provisions in the current memorandum of understanding.
Researcher, As an Individual
I think completely separate funding from the official languages in education program should be provided directly from the federal government to school boards to carry out their cultural and community mandates. Schools and school boards would be responsible, but their cultural and community mandate would be separate from the agreement on the official languages in education program, and that would make it possible to bypass recalcitrant provinces and territories.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you very much.
What I will do is ask either of you whether you have other recommendations you would like the federal government to take action on. You can send those to the clerk of the committee, and they will be incorporated into our final report.
Thank you so much for your testimony today. It's much appreciated.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal René Arseneault
Thank you, Ms. Gladu.
Mr. Serré, you have the floor for five minutes.
Liberal
Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank the two researchers very much for their testimony today. They've done some research with respect to the Constitution and provincial responsibilities.
On the one hand, we fully agree on the education continuum, early childhood, school boards and post-secondary education. Clearly, there are major gaps in that regard. We've heard that loud and clear throughout our study, and beforehand. I come from northern Ontario, where the challenges are huge, obviously. We're frustrated.
Ms. Chouinard, we're talking about certain elements. The federal government in power right now is the one that has probably imposed the most conditions in some of the agreements, something that had never been done before. However, these measures aren't enough.
You know that we have the court challenges program. The Bloc Québécois and the Conservatives were against this program, by the way. This was debated at the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage when I was a member. This matter is currently stalled in the House of Commons. We put that in the Official Languages Act.
Should francophone community groups across the country use this program to defend themselves against the provinces, to ensure that there are penalties and that funding is provided by the provinces for early childhood, secondary and post-secondary education?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
Mr. Serré, I don't know if you're aware of this, but you will be.
I'm a member of the official languages rights expert panel in the court challenges program. So I have a good idea of the types of applications that are submitted and the types of applications that are funded. These questions appear in the files filed under the court challenges program. However, one of the important criteria for cases to be funded is that they must raise a new question of law.
We know that a plethora of cases since 1982 have gone to the courts and all the way to the Supreme Court under section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Some issues are considered to have already been resolved, whether or not they are resolved in the way the communities would like them to be resolved. The choices are made in that context.
As for funding for early childhood and post-secondary education, there are indeed elements that have yet to be determined. Case law has already appeared in certain instances, including the obligation of a province to add a space to set up a child care centre when a new school is built. However, the Supreme Court refused to go that far.
It's important to keep things in perspective. Our job at the official languages rights expert panel is to see whether the applications before the panel raise new legal issues that deserve to be clarified by the courts.
Liberal
Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON
Would the only way to prioritize funding for official language minority communities be through the courts? At the moment, there doesn't seem to be any political will within the provinces.
Are you able to look at that, advocate for that, and bring in more people who are going to be looking at this issue?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
I'm not sure I understand your question.
Liberal
Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON
Do the parameters of the court challenges program need to be expanded so that other associations and organizations can take the provinces to court to force them to meet their obligations to official language minority communities under the Constitution? It's because education is a provincial responsibility.
Associate Professor, As an Individual
Okay.
I'm sort of walking on eggshells as a member of the official languages rights expert panel.
Associate Professor, As an Individual
I could say one thing, though. One of the problems faced by organizations wishing to pursue issues such as these through the courts is often the cap on funding available through the court challenges program. Because of the funding that is currently available, we often can't meet the demand for litigation costs from start to finish.
For example, we've heard the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique say many times that funding should be withdrawn from the operating budget, when that funding should help schools fund litigation against the province. We're facing some really troubling challenges. In the meantime, the quality of education cannot be the same. If school boards are constantly tied up in court, they have to take money out of their coffers to fight the province.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal René Arseneault
Thank you, Ms. Chouinard and Mr. Serré. We went a little over the allotted time.
Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
All the testimony presented here confirms that several anglophone provinces refuse to fund a minimum continuum of education for the viability of francophone and Acadian communities. Even federal funding sometimes seems to be diverted. There's also a lack of willingness on the part of the federal government to demand accountability. As a result, assimilation continues. At some point, irreparable harm will be done to francophone and Acadian communities that will have been assimilated as a result of measures aimed at banning schools a long time ago. If major change doesn't come soon, we'll be headed for further assimilation.
How do you see the future? What prospects do you see?
Researcher, As an Individual
There's been a reversal on Prince Edward Island, where I've worked the most. Ten or 15 years ago, there were about 850 students in our French schools. Now there are about 1,300. The goal is to reach 1,500 students.
If all these students are bilingual and proud of their identity building, I imagine that in 20 or 30 years, it will be much better than what we have now, quantitatively speaking.
Will the quality of identity building also be there? Federal funding for identity building and official language programs in education, among other things, could contribute enormously. It takes conviction on the part of the provinces, but I see that as a very positive thing.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
If we look at the figures objectively, we see no improvement so far.
Researcher, As an Individual
The figures I just gave you are for Prince Edward Island.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
For the number of students, it is. On the other hand, there are schools where a large proportion of students don't know French. We talked about it earlier, but we'll see.
Ms. Chouinard, would you like to comment on that?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
To quickly answer your question, I would say that the future belongs to those who fight, Mr. Beaulieu.