Official Languages Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I am going to ask a quick question that relates to the right to manage schools. I think that is a really important point, and one that you addressed. What would be the major difference or the fundamental differences between the full right to manage that you are quite clearly calling for and what you have right now?

[Simon Cloutier]

It is hard to give precise differences because it is very different from one province to another. There are provinces that have a lot more control than others, which have a lot less. The idea behind full management—

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Would you want this right of management to vary from one province to another, or rather that it be the same all across Canada?

[Simon Cloutier]

Ideally, all school boards in the country should have full management of their schools, their programs, and everything, which is not the case at present. Often, in many places, including in the Northwest Territories, where I come from, there is a lot of interference by the territorial government that limits the schools' autonomy.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Cloutier.

Mr. Samson, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the representatives of the three organizations for being with us, but I am going to focus on the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones.

Mr. Cloutier and Ms. Morand, my questions will be specific, and I am looking for specific answers, in order to cover more ground, if you don't mind.

First, I want to thank you for completing the questionnaire. I would ask that you continue encouraging the school boards to do that, because only three of them have completed it so far, and that is unacceptable. The committee needs this information to deliver the goods, and it intends to deliver something historic. So please, complete the questionnaire.

The main message I am getting from you is that actual school management is very important. I love the information you provided to us concerning school management and questions about programming, infrastructure, funding and student admissions, among other things. Some things are progressing well, including the student admissions, with the case that the Commission scolaire francophone des Territoires du Nord-Ouest took to the Supreme Court having had an effect there. Immigration and the priority given to teachers is going to help a bit to alleviate the staff shortage.

Funding is always a problem, but we must not forget that from 2015 to 2028, it went from $2.2 billion to $4.1 billion, almost double. Where do the problems lie now? I think infrastructure is the main problem, and two things have been identified in that regard. In my opinion, there are some things the government can do, and there are other things the courts have to resolve. The government can do some things, as it has already done, in particular helping with property. You talk about this point, which is very important. I agree 100% that you should be involved in that.

The thing the courts have to resolve is the issue of students. If there is no access to schools, you can't reach the 593,000 students in question.

Do you believe section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms should be interpreted more broadly?

[Simon Cloutier]

I think the Supreme Court has said in several of its judgments that section 23 of the Charter is not black and white, and we have to take a much broader view of it, but the problem that often arises is that the provinces and territories are actually trying to narrow its scope and make it black and white.

What is important, however, is the purpose of the Charter. When it was enacted in 1982, we could not have predicted what Canada would be in 2024. That is why we have these objectives and why it is important to recognize them.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you. Infrastructure is the important issue.

Francophone students have classes in trailers, which anglophones don't. Francophone students will be assimilated because they want to leave the French school.

A case needs to be mounted to assert our right and show that only one third of francophones attend French schools. We are entitled to an education in French, but students are leaving French schools because they find themselves in portable classrooms or because there is not enough space. This is a serious situation.

I quite like the idea of a preschool Francization program for children aged three to five.

Can you tell us about that, briefly?

[Simon Cloutier]

This is essential.

At present, there are so few early childhood child care services in French that we could pretty much say they are non-existent. This is a serious problem, because when children attend English-language schools, the language spoken at home becomes English.

Outside Canada, there are often exogamous families, as we would expect. When they arrive here, the parents of these families choose to send their children to English schools.

Investment in early childhood services is therefore essential to ensure the survival of the schools.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

So we have to address infrastructure and early childhood.

Bill C‑13 is helpful because it deals with preschool, in particular, and that will be an improvement.

You spoke earlier about the 2017 strategic agreement.

Have you asked for a new agreement? The reason I ask this question is that the agreement has expired. It was for a term of only five years.

If so, can you tell us what important details you have incorporated into the agreement?

[Simon Cloutier]

We are working on that. We are specifically trying to work with the government to determine what steps have to be taken to produce a memorandum of understanding, one that will be stronger, so we are able to achieve more results. Although it was a good step in the right direction, we still feel that the results were actually very mixed.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

If I understand correctly, autonomy when it comes to school board management, in the cases you mentioned, is not within reach; you need to get funding and a strategic plan has to be followed when it comes to infrastructure, preschool education, and so on.

[Simon Cloutier]

Yes, because—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Cloutier and Mr. Samson.

You are on the same clock as I am.

Mr. Cloutier, you will be able to provide details later, if you wish.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll be brief.

Mr. Gagnon, earlier you said that anglophone schools in Quebec were very well funded, perhaps overfunded. However, under the Official Languages Act, all funding is still allocated to the anglophone schools.

What do you think about that?

[Christian Gagnon]

Until 2018, the protocols between the federal government and the provincial education ministers didn't state the percentage distribution of funding between minority and immersion schools. It wasn't until the most recent protocol, the one from 2019 to 2023, that there was any such clarity. However, the rules provide that a province may change the funding distribution between immersion and French-language schools, provided they inform Ottawa of the change.

Earlier we heard witnesses complain about the lack of funding. However, it's extremely difficult to get any information from Ottawa or to know whether a province has altered the funding distribution, as it's entitled to do, even if it has signed the protocol.

I tried to do it. I contacted all the authorities and was told I could get the information, but I didn't even get an acknowledgement of receipt. It's very hard to find this out. There's clarity in principle, but, in actual fact, it's still very hard to get that information.

Earlier Ms. Ashton mentioned the teacher shortage. Immersion and French-language schools compete with each other to recruit French-language teachers.

If French-language schools remain underfunded and immersion schools raise salaries, French schools won't be able to compete with immersion schools, and the teacher shortage will worsen for French schools.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I have another quick question—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Gagnon and Mr. Beaulieu.

I would remind you once again that everyone is on the clock as I am.

Before turning the floor over to Ms. Ashton, I want to tell you, out of a concern for fairness, that Mr. Gagnon may be leaving the meeting at 12:45.

Is that still the case, Mr. Gagnon?

[Christian Gagnon]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I am informing you of this because, if you want to ask Mr. Gagnon questions, you will have to do so before he leaves around 12:45. That's why I'm letting you know.

Ms. Ashton, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for the representative of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones, and they're similar to the ones I asked Ms. Yetman.

I would appreciate brief answers. Do you think that the labour shortage in your schools amounts to a crisis?

[Simon Cloutier]

Absolutely. We have a major crisis in many provinces and territories.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

As far as specific solutions go, do you think the federal government has a permanent role to play in providing stable, permanent education funding to address that crisis?

[Simon Cloutier]

Yes, I do.

And one of our potential solutions is to expedite recognition of the qualifications of people from outside Canada. I'm glad to hear that the federal government is attracting more teachers, although it's also important to acknowledge their experience.

I think the federal government also has an influential role to play with the provinces, territories and various federations—their names don't matter—to recognize the experience these people have acquired and to enable them to move here and teach in our schools. That would be a great help to us.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

All right.

How can we attract and recruit teachers from both outside Canada and here, in our communities, among the graduates of our educational institutions? Do you think their salaries should be increased? Should we have education scholarships, particularly to train educators in French? Should we offer financial incentives, considering the fact that the country is facing a crisis that could contribute to the decline of French outside Quebec because we can't meet French-language education needs.