Evidence of meeting #125 for Official Languages in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Heidi Yetman  President, Canadian Teachers' Federation
Christian Gagnon  President, Ligue d'Action nationale
Simon Cloutier  President, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones
Valérie Morand  Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

We have often heard that organizations for the defence of French in Quebec are not concerned about francophones outside Quebec. How do you answer that?

12:10 p.m.

President, Ligue d'Action nationale

Christian Gagnon

I think that is not an accurate statement. The Société Saint‑Jean‑Baptiste de Montréal actually has a scholarship system exclusively for francophone organizations outside Quebec. As well, the Société Saint‑Jean‑Baptiste and the Mouvement Québec français have often intervened in cases outside Quebec, in particular Caron v. Alberta a few years ago, or the huge case brought by the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie‑Britannique that was first won in the British Columbia Supreme Court.

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

The Official Languages Act has been around for 55 years and the court challenges program has been around for 45 years, but francophone schools outside Quebec are still chronically underfunded. The assimilation rate is rising. You have a table that illustrates this.

What should we conclude from this? Is there something that could change? What can be done to change things?

12:10 p.m.

President, Ligue d'Action nationale

Christian Gagnon

Education is under provincial jurisdiction and the federal government cannot tell the provinces what to do, but it should at least require the provinces to use the funds it gives them to provide better support and funding for francophone minority education.

So we should start by telling the provinces that the money it sends them must not be used for immersion programs for anglophones anymore. That money must be used solely to fund the francophone system. This would make a lot more money available for francophones. As I said earlier, the anglophone provinces say education in French costs too much. Well, if it costs so much, the federal government can tell them to use the money it sends them to fund French schools. That would be one way to solve the problem.

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Yes, it would.

In the table you presented, the percentage of federal funding allocated to the schools that meet the by and for francophones principle ranges from 76.8% to 33%, as compared to immersion schools. Is that correct?

12:10 p.m.

President, Ligue d'Action nationale

Christian Gagnon

I was told that the table in question had to be translated before being distributed to the committee members. I don't know whether that was done.

Take the example of Newfoundland, where the federal government pays $3.9 million for official languages. Out of that, the province spends $1.3 million for francophones and $2.6 million—twice as much— for anglophone immersion programs. Knowing that the assimilation rate for francophones in Newfoundland is 64%, we frankly consider this to be money that the federal government should be directing elsewhere.

There are other cases. In Saskatchewan, for example, 40% of the $6.7 million paid by the federal government goes to francophone schools and 60% to immersion programs. If the federal government told the province that the money it provides may not go to immersion programs anymore and must go to francophone schools, they would get almost twice as much money.

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

Thank you, Mr. Gagnon.

We are going to move on to the NDP.

Ms. Ashton, the floor is yours for six minutes.

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before asking my questions, I want to say I am a bit concerned about immersion being regarded as an attack on francophone education, particularly in western Canada. I am a graduate of an immersion school myself. That school was the only option in northern Manitoba at the time. In fact, there has not even been both a French school and an immersion school for ten years yet. The reality is that in some of our communities, immersion is the only choice in the vicinity for rights holders and for families who want their children to be bilingual. So I don't believe the solution is to attack immersion, it is to determine what needs the schools have in common. Education in French is not the only thing that needs more support.

I will now turn to the witnesses, whom I thank for being with us.

Ms. Yetman, I appreciate your connection with Manitoba. Thank you for the clear message you have conveyed, which included the federal government's responsibility for funding education in French.

My question will be brief: do you think that the labour shortage in French first language education or in immersion programs is a crisis in this country?

12:15 p.m.

President, Canadian Teachers' Federation

Heidi Yetman

Yes, there is a crisis in Canada. I would say that on the francophone side it is worse than on the anglophone side.

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

That reflects what we have heard from a number of witnesses.

When it comes to solutions, I believe the federal government prefers that the provinces handle it, and yet when it comes to bilingualism and the need to address the decline of French, clearly the federal government has a role to play under the Official Languages Act.

Let's talk about concrete solutions. Other witnesses have told us that to deal with the labour shortage, we have to figure out how to attract teachers. Do you think that offering a higher wage, for example, is something that could be done? Do we need to reimburse people who study to become teachers in French for a portion of their tuition fees? Should we be proposing incentives for teachers to work in francophone or immersion schools after that? Do you have any concrete solutions to propose?

12:15 p.m.

President, Canadian Teachers' Federation

Heidi Yetman

The solutions are the same for the anglophone and francophone sides. We have to value the profession. We don't do that at present, and that is a big problem. When we value a profession, we pay the people. I have a son who is an engineer. He will be getting his degree shortly, after four years of university, and will be earning more than teachers who are at the top of the salary scale. So in my opinion, pay is part of valuing. I have also talked about employment terms and scholarships, which are also important to encourage people to choose this profession, which is the greatest in the world.

I would now like to make an unrelated comment. In minority communities in Canada and Quebec, people work very well together. We work with school boards and parents, as a community. So we absolutely have to look at this a bit differently, because we are capable of working together more than elsewhere. That means that people have to be consulted. What we are doing today is extremely important. For example, in our community, we collaborate, we are partners, we talk to one another, and that happens all the time in minority communities.

When I worked in Quebec, our association worked upstream with the school boards. That doesn't happen on the francophone side in Quebec, but it works in the minority communities. This collaboration is a huge asset. So we have to think about that when we talk about minorities. People are capable of working together, so we have to listen to them.

In other words, it is important to value the profession, to improve the terms of employment, to increase university scholarships, and to create more places in the universities. I am glad to hear that the Liberal government wants to make immigration by teachers and educators a priority, which is also a good thing, because we need these people.

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

Thank you, Ms. Yetman and Ms. Ashton.

Mr. Généreux, the floor is yours for five minutes.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being with us today.

Mr. Cloutier, your federation has signed a strategic agreement with the Government of Canada, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada and the Commission nationale des parents francophones. You said it was not possible to track the impact of that agreement. What did you mean by that, and what were you asking for at the time?

12:20 p.m.

President, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Simon Cloutier

Thank you for the question.

First, you have to understand that we signed the strategic agreement in order to have a voice in the negotiations concerning education transfers to the provinces and territories, what is commonly called the official languages in education program. That was the aim of the strategic agreement.

However, now that the agreement has been in place for the entire length of an action plan for official languages, we can see that there has not been enough consultation, although we have seen some improvement in that regard. As well, when it comes to accountability, things are still extremely complicated. As other witnesses have explained, there is tremendous disparity between the envelope for French first language education and the envelope for immersion programs.

As well, some provinces go even further and tell the federal government that its money was spent in French language schools, when our school boards, which are on site, say the money was actually used to pay teachers who should have been paid by the province instead. Those funds, which were supposed to be additional funds, are ultimately not additional. That is the problem.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Right, but what were you asking for at the time?

12:20 p.m.

President, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Simon Cloutier

We were asking to have a voice in the negotiations. At the start, we had asked for a tripartite agreement, but that was not agreed to, and so we signed a strategic agreement. In an ideal world, we would be a party to a tripartite agreement, so we could participate fully in the process and be able to monitor the money transferred to each province and territory and what ends up happening.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Under the protocol for agreements for minority language education and second-language instruction, 2019‑2020 to 2022‑2023, between the Government of Canada and the provinces and territories, there were three main shortcomings. What were those shortcomings, in your opinion?

12:20 p.m.

President, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Simon Cloutier

I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question properly. What shortcomings are you talking about?

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

I'm talking about the shortcomings in the protocol, particularly the ones observed over the last three years.

12:20 p.m.

President, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Simon Cloutier

The first shortcoming relates to consultations. We want a lot more, because often—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Are you talking about the federal government?

12:20 p.m.

President, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Simon Cloutier

I'm talking about the federal government, obviously. That said, what we would like is to be at the table with the federal government and the provinces when each transfer is negotiated, whether it be a Canada—Ontario transfer, a Canada—NWT transfer, or whatever. That is the first shortcoming.

The second shortcoming is obviously accountability. This is a big problem because, in our opinion, not a lot of accounting is requested, nor is much auditing being done to identify what problems the money is spent on.

For the third shortcoming, I will ask Ms. Morand to answer, since she has the information in front of her.

Valérie Morand Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

I was going to note that the process is still very opaque, despite all the efforts to make it more transparent. Accountability and an understanding of where the money is being allocated are still very unclear. There is a new action plan, and when it was brought in, we figured that the official languages in education program was not in its infancy, and yet it is as if the process started over again every time. The school boards are completely in the dark. There are interim measures in place during the transition year before the new program comes into effect, and while we wait, the funds are stalled. There are school boards that have to lay off staff. There are school boards whose budgets and finances are up in the air.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Are you talking about a lack of continuity from one plan to the next?

12:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones

Valérie Morand

That's it, there is no continuity. There are service interruptions.