Official Languages Committee on March 30th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'm told we have a quorum. So we can begin.

Good afternoon, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 13 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Members are attending in person or using the Zoom application.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation, and in light of the recommendations from health authorities, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person should follow the directives of the Board of Internal Economy.

I thank members in advance for their cooperation. A reminder to everyone, when speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mic should be on mute.

Should any technical challenges arise, please advise me immediately. Please know that we may need to suspend for a few minutes, as we need to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(f) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, January 31, 2022, the committee is resuming its study on francophone immigration to Canada and Quebec.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses.

We are pleased to have, in particular, Mr. Théberge, Commissioner of Official Languages.

Mr. Théberge, it's always a pleasure to have you with us.

Mr. Théberge is accompanied by Isabelle Gervais, Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Assurance Branch, and Pierre Leduc, Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Communications Branch.

Good afternoon, everyone. It's a pleasure to see you once again in our committee.

As you know, Commissioner, you have five minutes for your opening remarks. Then we will go to a period of questions. I will let you know when you have one minute left.

Commissioner, you have the floor.

[Raymond Théberge, Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Honourable members of the Committee, good afternoon.

Although today’s meeting is taking place virtually, I would like to acknowledge that I am speaking to you from Treaty No. 1 territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota and Dene peoples and the homeland of the Métis nation.

Immigration has a direct influence on the demolinguistic balance between English and French in Canada outside of Quebec. It’s good to see that your Committee is looking into this key issue. Today, I’d like talk to talk to you about our recent study on the 4.4% immigration target for French-speaking immigrants in Francophone minority communities.

The study primarily consists of a statistical analysis.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Pardon me for interrupting, Commissioner.

I'm told you could perhaps lower your microphone slightly.

[Raymond Théberge]

All right.

And I must stress here that it focuses solely on immigration as a factor influencing the demographic weight of Francophone minority communities. It does not include other important factors—like low birth rates, an aging population and interprovincial mobility, for example—which can also have various degrees of impact in different regions.

Our statistical analysis also deals with only one part of the immigration continuum: the selection and admission of French-speaking permanent residents. It does not address their integration into francophone minority communities or their retention within those communities.

Studies show that even if the 4.4% francophone immigration target had been consistently met each year since the original 2008 deadline, it would not have been enough to maintain the demographic weight of the French-speaking population outside Quebec, which was the goal, much less contribute to its growth, which was the ideal. According to the 2001 census, this population represented 4.4% of the Canadian population outside Quebec. If the target had been met, it could have helped reduce the decline we saw in the 2016 census, when the demographic weight dropped to 3.8%.

Today, almost 20 years after it was set, the target is still not being met. Between 2008, which was the original target deadline, and 2020, the shortfall in admissions of French-speaking permanent residents to francophone minority communities is upwards of 75,000.

Our study, like many others, noted that Francophone minority communities have been experiencing immigration deficits for decades. We’re already seeing the demographic impact.

There are also current and long-term repercussions on the economic, cultural and social aspects of community vitality. We’ve seen the impact of an aging population in many Francophone minority communities, where seniors are often older and more vulnerable than seniors in English-speaking majority communities. This is a worrisome effect of immigration deficits within Francophone minority communities.

Extending over more than 20 years—which is an entire generation—this trend of increasing deficits needs to be reversed right now in order to ensure the future of Canada’s Francophone communities outside Quebec.

Francophone minority communities across the country are keen to attract, welcome and support all newcomers.

It's time to do more and do better. In our study, I recommend that Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada conduct a full analysis of the current target and its impact in order to help define a new, higher one.

I also call on the federal government to adopt a policy on immigration to francophone minority communities. I'm very pleased that the new version of the long-awaited bill to modernize the Official Languages Act has been tabled and is now a reality. Bill C-13 recognizes immigration as one of the factors that contribute to maintaining or increasing the demographic weight of French linguistic minority communities.

It also requires the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to adopt a policy on francophone immigration, including objectives, targets and indicators to enhance the vitality of French linguistic minority communities in Canada.

Given the importance of immigration for Francophone minority communities, I will be studying the new obligations in Bill C-13 to make sure that they provide the best possible results for the communities.

Francophone immigration is still very much in the news. It’s reassuring to see numerous initiatives being organized across the country to support immigration to Francophone minority communities, and I sincerely hope that all of these efforts will yield results for these communities in their determination to grow and thrive.

Thank you for your attention.

I will be happy to answer your questions in the official language of your choice.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

I would remind you that your microphone is still extremely sensitive. Could you lower it a bit more?

[Raymond Théberge]

Is it better like that?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Yes, that may be better.

The first questions will be asked by the first vice-chair of the committee, Joël Godin.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair

Thank you for being with us today, Mr. Théberge. It's always a pleasure to welcome you to the committee.

You discussed a number of factors that may influence the presence of francophones in minority communities and said that immigration was one of the solutions.

Would you please tell us where immigration ranks among the solutions that should be applied to address to the deficit of francophones outside Quebec?

[Raymond Théberge]

I think immigration is the most effective solution for maintaining the demographic weight of francophone communities outside Quebec relative to that of the anglophone majority. In the Canadian context, immigration is the most important factor in ensuring demographic growth across the country. That's obviously true for francophones as well.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Commissioner.

You said that Bill C-13, which was introduced on March 1^st of this year, acknowledged the importance of immigration. You also noted that it contained a provision requiring the Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, to adopt a policy including indicators.

It's good to see such a provision in the bill. However, apart from the obligation to establish a francophone immigration policy including objectives, targets and indicators, no mention is made of an obligation of result.

What's your opinion on that point?

[Raymond Théberge]

It would be good to see that clarified in the regulations made under Bill C-13. It's also important to acknowledge that the situation is now urgent and we must take action to address the demographic decline of our communities. We have to establish somewhat stronger measures. In fact, I think we should have a francophone immigration policy focusing specifically on the development of our francophone minority communities.

We definitely need to expand the bill's current provisions and ensure accountability, probably on an annual basis.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you.

Do you think that the bill the Minister of Official Languages introduced has teeth?

[Raymond Théberge]

Considering the powers it would grant the Commissioner, I'd say the bill is much more robust than the present version of the Official Languages Act.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

You say it's more robust, but could it be more so?

[Raymond Théberge]

It might be useful, for example, to extend administrative monetary penalties to other sectors besides transportation. It's also a question whether the various powers could be applied to part VII of the act as well. We're examining all these aspects, and we'll be back with much clearer positions during the debates and proceedings on the bill.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Commissioner.

Bill C-13 would give you more powers, but what about francophone immigration?

You now have additional authority to compel transportation sector organizations that provide services to travellers to comply with the act.

Allow me to cite a very specific case as an example. Regina's airport, which is required to comply with the Official Languages Act, asserts that every necessary effort has been made to find bilingual or francophone employees in order to comply with the act.

What will happen if there's no francophone immigration pool? How will you react?

What will you do as Commissioner if that airport accepts flights and proves that it has done everything it's required to do to comply with the act but is simply unable to attract francophones?

[Raymond Théberge]

That's a hypothetical situation and a hard one for me to speculate on.

What's important is that we ensure our francophone minority communities can take in enough immigrants to secure the demographic weight of those communities.

As I said in my presentation, the demographic decline has an impact on the economy, culture and services. Strong immigration is essential to guaranteeing the future of our communities.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you.

Commissioner, let's say you have a magic wand and you want to reverse the decline of French in Canada.

What do you do?

[Raymond Théberge]

We have to design an immigration policy tailored to our communities. That means establishing much more ambitious targets than in the past and acquiring the means and resources to reach those targets.

Perhaps we should think…

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Pardon me for interrupting, Commissioner, but I'd like to know what you mean by a more ambitious target than 4.4%.

[Raymond Théberge]

It could be a 7%, 8% or 9% target. However, before setting it, we would need evidence, such as the existing gaps…

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Commissioner.

A word to committee members, before we continue, I would like to inform you that the bell will ring around 6:34 p.m. Do we have unanimous consent to continue the meeting until there are five minutes left. I believe everyone here votes using the Zoom application and that no one is voting in person in Parliament.

Do I have unanimous consent to continue the meeting while the bell rings?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair, but perhaps we should decide how long before the start of the voting you want the meeting to stop.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I suggest we continue the meeting until five minutes before the vote.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

That's fine with me, Mr. Chair.