Official Languages Committee on Oct. 6th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Your question was excellent, Mr. Godin, but you know I'm strict about speaking time because I want everyone to have time to ask questions.

The next speaker is the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Official Languages, Mr. Serré, for six minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Théberge, thank you for being here today. As a Franco-Ontarian, I want to thank you for the work that you do for the francophonie and that you have done for the Manitoban francophonie.

Earlier my colleague agreed with you that Bill C‑13 should be passed as soon as possible. So we should proceed with the clause-by-clause review of the bill taking your recommendations into consideration. Michel Bastarache, Linda Cardinal, Michel Doucet, Rémi Léger, Benoît Pelletier, Martin Normand and Alexandre Cédric Doucet also say the time to act is now.

As you said, consultations have been conducted on the earlier legislation, Bill C‑32, the present Bill C‑13 and the government's action plan for official languages. Should we continue discussing the importance of passing Bill C‑13 and enriching and supporting the action plan?

[Raymond Théberge]

In our brief, we discuss how important it is to have a whole‑of‑government action plan to support the development of official language minority communities. It's important to know how to develop that plan and who will be responsible for implementing it.

Canadian Heritage is doing extraordinary work with the communities. What we're proposing takes nothing away from its consultation efforts.

According to Michel Doucet, who was one of the people you previously mentioned, the Official Languages Act is the legislation least complied with in the history of Canada. My office has received 60,000 complaints since it was created.

It's important for us to establish the best possible structure to ensure proper implementation of the act from the outset. Since we've never had that structure in the past, I think we have to create it. It's all well and good to have the best legislation in the world, but we won't achieve the results we want if we fail to implement it.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Earlier you gave quite a clear answer to my colleague's question. When you appeared before the committee on March 30 of this year, I also asked you if Bill C‑13 should have more teeth and whether it should be passed in the ensuing few days, weeks or months. You answered that we should get going on a study of Bill C‑13 as soon as possible to examine your recommendations line by line. Is that still your opinion?

[Raymond Théberge]

Absolutely. As I previously said, I think a lot of studies and consultations have already been conducted on the various versions of this bill over the years. We could obviously make more changes and amendments, but I repeat: it's time to take action.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

While we delay in passing Bill C‑13, the Office québécois de la langue française recently sent a letter to all federally regulated private businesses in Quebec advising them that they're required to comply with the Charter of the French language.

If Bill C‑13 isn't passed soon, aren't you afraid that certain provinces may jump the gun or pass legislation that won't necessarily favour francophone minorities across the country?

[Raymond Théberge]

I think that what you're saying mainly concerns federally regulated private businesses. Every province is free to adopt what it considers the right policies.

However, once the Use of French in Federally Regulated Private Businesses Act, which would be introduced under Bill C‑13, is enacted, there will be two language regimes, which could cause some confusion for businesses and consumers. Consequently, I think it's extremely important that we clarify who's responsible for what.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

On immigration, we're working hard to meet targets that have never been met in decades. What do you think those targets should be? I'm talking about the action plan and Bill C‑13, but also about subsequent regulations.

[Raymond Théberge]

The current 4.4% clearly isn't enough to maintain the demographic weight of francophones, much less increase it. Should the required minimum be double that percentage or even more? The demographic experts may be able to determine the necessary target. Some say it should be 12%, for example.

If we can't maintain the demographic weight of francophones in Canada, it's not looking good for the future of linguistic duality in this country.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

Donald Savoie made a presentation on the Treasury Board at the Summit on Francophone Minority Economies, which we organized and held in Ottawa in late September.

You've made recommendations on Bill C‑13. Are you aware of the position taken by Mr. Savoie, who supports the bill as it was introduced?

[Raymond Théberge]

I appreciated the comments of Mr. Savoie, who also said he didn't agree with the 2008 changes, when we transferred…

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Commissioner.

You'll be able to continue later, but I'm trying to be strict so that everyone has the same speaking time. Pardon me, but that's my job.

Mario Beaulieu, the committee's second vice-chair, will have the next six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Théberge. I'd like to thank you and your colleagues for being here.

Two years ago, the federal government took a historic change in direction. It recognized that Quebeckers are part of the francophone minority in Canada and America, and that it was responsible for defending the French language in Quebec as well.

Bill C‑13 addresses the issue of federally regulated private businesses, but the proposed measures would, I feel, be a step backward rather than forward. Apart from these measures, what is there in the bill that will help counteract the decline of French in Quebec?

[Raymond Théberge]

Some aspects of the bill show that we are going to deal with a number of important issues, including part VII of the Official Languages Act, which does in fact give the government a lot of flexibility for program development .

Positive measures are also required. For example, federal institutions need to do something to promote French. I agree with what you said about the fact that recognizing Quebec as a minority in Canada is an extremely important starting point. It's important to acknowledge that the Canadian francophonie is in the minority in the anglophone sea of North America.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Absolutely.

The question of positive measures is not at all clear in Bill C‑13. The Quebec government asked the federal government to recognize that there is only one minority official language, but the federal government instead acknowledges that French is a minority language in Canada, and that's all. I think one of the sections is a little more precise, but the federal government continues to say that the English language is in the minority in Quebec, which amounts to a contradiction.

Do you believe that anything will change with the positive measures? What would help counteract the decline of French?

[Raymond Théberge]

These decisions will fall within the purview of the federal institutions. Whether for Canadian Heritage or IRCC, the departments will have decisions to make about how to ensure the promotion of French both within and outside of Quebec.

I believe there is an obligation to act with respect to the promotion of French. Indeed, the obligation to promote and protect French is now acknowledged. This obligation, in my view, applies to all federal institutions.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In part VII of the act, it's not very clear.

What do you feel would constitute a positive measure that defends French? Can you give us an example, without necessarily telling the government what to do.

[Raymond Théberge]

Generally speaking, education is an important factor. What's involved is having enough funds to provide language training from primary school to post-secondary and beyond, and to give people access to quality training in the language of their choice.

It's also important to ensure that federal institutions provide services in French in Quebec and in all regions that are designated bilingual.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

English-language institutions are already overfunded and they always have been. All of the funds under the Canada-Quebec Agreement served to strengthen anglophone educational institutions.

It now looks like what's wanted is for funding to continue for anglophone institutions, and for francophone institutions to also receive funding. Is that right?

[Raymond Théberge]

As I said earlier, I believe the legislator's intent as expressed in the bill is to find ways or mechanisms to promote and protect French. I think that it's up to institutions and the government to determine the best steps to take.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

As for the "by and for francophones" principle, the Government of Quebec has submitted a set of requests, including a very specific amendment to Bill C‑13, but none of this has made its way into the current version of the bill.

And yet, 90% of the francophone minority is in Quebec. The decline of French is accelerating, including among francophones themselves, and for whom a language transfer from French to English is in evidence. In spite of this, you feel that the bill should be adopted as quickly as possible.

How, in your opinion, will Quebec react if we proceed in this fashion?

[Raymond Théberge]

The bill as it stands, with the addition of a few of the proposed amendments, could indeed protect French. The legislator's intent is to protect and promote French. It's the first time this wording has been used in connection with official languages.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

The intentions and actions assume that time is limited. Not only that, but the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages was overloaded with work. This could be discussed later.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

I'm now going to give the floor to Ms. Ashton, who is joining the meeting from Manitoba.

You have six minutes, Ms. Ashton.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Commissioner.

My first question is about language clauses. In your brief, you say that it would be appropriate to include a requirement for enforceable language clauses in the bill. This has frequently been voiced at this committee. It is seen as a historic opportunity to protect services for francophones.

You are saying that agreements which do not include language clauses may have a negative impact on the official language minority communities. Could you give us examples of this?