Official Languages Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[Antoine Désilets]

I think that's essential.

In an emergency, if society shirks its responsibilities and abandons its official language objectives, it sends out the message that French is a secondary language. I don't think that's a good message to send.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I would now like to go back to the proposals you made.

You drew a distinction between public health and health services.

How does that work for the two types of services?

[Antoine Désilets]

I'll be pleased to tell you a little about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have 15 seconds left, Mr. Désilets.

[Antoine Désilets]

Virtually 75% of funding and support, that is to say most of it, currently concerns service development at the federal level.

As I said in my presentation, we influence the situation somewhat indirectly. Our work is to equip the provinces to do this work.

Currently, in public health, there's a…

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Désilets.

We'll be able to come back to that later.

I now give the floor to the second vice-chair of the committee.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question concerns the schools.

I read that approximately 50% of the children of francophone parents don't have access to a French school.

Do you think that percentage reflects the actual situation?

If so, would that situation be attributable to the fact that francophones are scattered across an enormous territory?

[Alain Laberge]

That's an excellent point.

I worked in British Columbia for 15 years. Quebeckers congregated in Maillardville.

At one point, the number of newcomers speaking English exploded, along with house prices, and francophones then found themselves scattered everywhere. That's why we need more schools.

In addition, newcomers often face financial challenges and all wind up in the same area, which increases the number of students in our already full schools. We also send them the wrong message by saying that, even though Canada is a bilingual country, they will never work in French in Manitoba. To ensure their survival, these people enrol their children in English-language schools. I speak very good French, and my daughter went to the French school and is already bilingual.

However, you have to take all these factors into consideration.

Mr. Beaulieu, you're right in saying that nearly 50%, perhaps even more, of the children of francophone parents currently don't attend French-language schools.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

According to Bill C‑13 and the white paper, we're trying to increase the funding granted to immersion schools. However, there's no talk of increasing funding for schools managed by francophones and intended for francophones.

Many stakeholders have told me that immersion schools guarantee a minimum level of French-language learning but that, in many instances, they promote the assimilation of young francophones.

Don't you think we should also increase the funding granted to schools managed by francophones and intended for francophones?

[Alain Laberge]

I completely agree with you.

I think we also have to change the culture. If you have immersion schools, but there's absolutely no francophone life outside school, that kills the language.

For example, children may attend immersion school and want to learn French, but if everything they do, such as playing soccer or swimming with their friends who speak English, or going to mass, takes place in English, it's a complete waste of time.

The fact that immersion schools receive more money is one thing. However, schools absolutely have to operate in an environment where the structure also enables students to live in French.

As was noted earlier, part of French-language school budgets should be used to promote new immigration, in particular. We would also like to recruit people from Africa and have them come here, but we can't offer them work or anything else. It's like a wagon with a broken wheel.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Most of the funding goes to immersion schools.

Would it be a good thing for immersion schools to be managed by francophones?

[Alain Laberge]

That's a very political question, Mr. Beaulieu.

I'm an administrator. If you tell me that, tomorrow morning, the Franco-Manitoban School Division will manage the real property of the immersion schools, I'll do it because it will be my duty. Would we go about it differently? Yes, of course. Would we have trouble finding teachers? Yes, we'd be facing the same challenge.

Canada claims to be a bilingual country, but it needs to walk the walk. French-language services must be made universally accessible. It's impossible to be served in French at Saint Boniface Hospital. Where's the logic in that?

Why would children and newcomers want to learn this language if nothing then attaches them to it?

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In Quebec, the Act respecting health services and social services guarantees service in English for English-speaking persons, not just for anglophones.

Many hospitals have been designated to provide those services under article 29.1 of the Charter of the French language. This means that they operate in English and hire anglophone personnel.

The plans respecting access to those services aren't subject to a clause specifying "where numbers warrant". Services are simply provided on demand.

Shouldn't that be introduced outside Quebec for francophones? In any event, I think the situation should be rectified accordingly.

Perhaps this is a bigger concern for the representative of Société Santé en français.

[Antoine Désilets]

The issue of designations is critical, and it's essential that we know the population pools.

That takes me back to the compelling data issue. As is the case in education, there's no clear information on the services that francophones use or on the service points where they go. We don't know if they have any different health needs. So everything depends on access to good data, and we don't have that on the ground right now.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Given that observation, should Bill C‑13 be reinforced in order to reverse the trend toward assimilation of francophones outside Quebec?

[Antoine Désilets]

It's important to seize the opportunity. The objectives in Bill C‑13 must be clarified and the right measures put in place.

I obviously agree that the bill has to be reinforced in order to guarantee its impact. Our ultimate goal is to ensure that language isn't a barrier for francophones in the health field. We want all Canadians to be well served across the country.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Désilets.

I think my time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

We will complete this first round of questions with Ms. Ashton, who is from Manitoba.

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to our witnesses for being here today.

Today's meeting is special for me, because we have a representative of the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine, the DSFM, here with us today. The committee is well aware of the challenges I encountered when I tried to enrol my children in the francophone day care centre in Thompson, and we know that these challenges are related to the worker shortage in early childhood education across Canada.

The committee also knows how pleased I am that the DSFM accepted my children, who are beginning kindergarten this year. If you can hear them in the background, it's because schools are closed today. It's a professional development day for the teachers. I must say that things have been going well for my children and that we've been speaking French to one another, even though the school is closed today.

I'd like to thank Mr. Laberge and Mr. Désilets for their testimony and for the clear message they have been sending out on what we can do at this historic moment to improve the bill and stop the decline in French across Canada, including Manitoba communities.

Mr. Laberge, the committee previously heard from Mr. Jean-François Parent, of the Réseau de développement économique et d'employabilité, which published a report last month about the shortage of francophone workers in many different fields, including education.

We also heard from Mr. Roger Lepage, who told us that the situation was more or less the same in Saskatchewan.

To what extent do you think the report's conclusions are applicable to Manitoba?

[Alain Laberge]

That's really a very good question.

You're talking about Thompson, Manitoba, a city in the northern part of the province that has a small francophone community. The community wants to grow. But for a community to grow and prosper in French, access to services is essential, and francophone members of the community need to work twice as hard to get them. It's therefore important to encourage potential newcomers to come and work here to repopulate and remain in the community. There is no point in bringing in new teachers to work at the La Voie du Nord day care centre if they're going to move to Winnipeg two years later.

In order to provide a basic level of services, a system needs to be introduced and investment is required. If there's only one francophone day care centre in a city like Thompson, and it happens to be 10 or 15 kilometres away from where you live, then it's easier to send your children to the anglophone day care centre just around the corner.

It's impossible to fight against a system like that. If families are to be helped, then equitable services have to be available in all the provinces.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

That's it exactly. We are well aware of that reality.

I'd also like to ask you what you think, given your experience not only with the DSFM, but also in British Columbia, about the following issue.

We acknowledge that there is a worker shortage. We've tried to support day care services by recruiting people from abroad. We encountered many different obstacles as a result of the federal government's lack of priorities on the recruitment of education and early childhood professionals, including internationally.

Do you think the federal government should use this act to do a lot more to attract francophone educators from abroad, including those who work in early childhood education.

[Alain Laberge]

At the federal level, education is the poor relation, because it's a provincial jurisdiction. I believe the federal government understands the importance of funding. It also understands the role Canada can play in retaining foreign workers. But first, you have to go and get them. You have to attract them and then make them want to live here.

There are gaps in education, just as there are in other fields. Is this because it's not considered a saving, or rather an investment?

I think we have to look at things the other way around, and view education as the lifeblood of francophone communities outside Quebec. In fact, it's true for Quebec as well.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Laberge.

Mr. Désilets, according to the employability report prepared by the Réseau de développement économique et d'employabilité, there is also a shortage of qualified workers in health care services.

What more can the government do to ensure the continuance of francophone health care services, and what would be the repercussions if the francophone immigration policy were to fail?

[Antoine Désilets]

I'm not a specialist in immigration policy. However, with respect to the availability of labour, there's a shortage in health care everywhere in Canada. It affects francophones even more. By that I mean that there are no francophone health care professionals in Canada who are unable to provide services in English as well, at least outside of Quebec.

These are people who are really bilingual, because that's the reality of the workplace. It means that they can work equally well in anglophone, francophone and bilingual settings. This exacerbates the shortage.

Francophone immigration is certainly one solution to the immigration-related problems. Credential recognition is another extremely important factor. There are major challenges in integrating workers from abroad. One example is the language tests prior to the skills upgrading tests. People arrive here thinking they will be working in French, but are told they have to learn English before their capacities can be recognized. I think some changes could be made in this area.

Then, of course, it's important not to forget training. There are structural circumstances that impede the training process. One example of this involves nurse training in Canada. At the moment, several provinces administer an American test that puts francophones at a significant disadvantage. Before this new test was introduced, the success rate for francophones was 93%. After the introduction of the new test, it dropped to 35% in the first year.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Désilets.

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

We are now going to the second round of questions.

Returning to join us today is someone who missed the Standing Committee on Official Languages so much that he begged us to invite him again.