Official Languages Committee on Nov. 1st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 38 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, May 30, 2022, the committee is resuming consideration of Bill C‑13, An Act to amend the Official Languages Act, to enact the Use of French in Federally Regulated Private Businesses Act and to make related amendments to other Acts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Members may attend in person in the room or remotely using the Zoom application.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules for members and witnesses.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. Please mute your mike when you are not speaking.

For interpretation, those participating through Zoom have the choice, at the bottom of their screen, between three channels: floor, English or French. Members attending in person in the room can use their headset after selecting the channel desired.

A reminder that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

Members in the room who would like the floor must raise their hands. Members participating via Zoom must use the “raise hand” feature. The clerk of the committee and I will do our best to maintain an order of speaking for all members. Your patience and understanding are appreciated.

Pursuant to our routine motion, I want to let the committee members know that all the witnesses went through the required connectivity tests before the meeting.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses.

We have with us today representatives of the Association des conseils scolaires des écoles publiques de l'Ontario, Denis Chartrand, president, and Isabelle Girard, executive director.

We also have Sophie Bouffard, president of the Université de Saint‑Boniface, who is participating by video conference.

Dear witnesses, welcome.

As is customary, each witness will have five minutes for their presentation. I am quite strict with my timekeeping in order to give all committee members the opportunity to ask their questions.

We will start with the Association des conseils scolaires des écoles publiques de l'Ontario. You have five minutes.

[Denis Chartrand, President, Association des conseils scolaires des écoles publiques de l'Ontario]

Thank you for inviting the Association des conseils scolaires des écoles publiques de l'Ontario, ACEPO, of which I am president. I am accompanied by our executive director, Isabelle Girard. I am also the outgoing president of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones, which has already shared with you an opinion that is very similar to mine. I am a retired professional engineer.

ACEPO represents French-language public school boards in Ontario. It manages 140 schools and offers quality education programs in French. Bill C‑13 is a step in the right direction, but concrete and realistic amendments are needed so we can achieve our common goal of ensuring the sustainability and vitality of French and its cultures.

We need effective coordination without duplication. We need positive measures, which are required and not just appropriate, in order to achieve this. Today, we are asking for a very specific amendment, one we have asked for in the past. You will find it at tab 1 of the binder you received.

ACEPO members should be managing many more schools in order to provide French-language education to many more students. However, securing available land to build schools is a significant challenge to implementing section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The federal government owns a multitude of sites that it routinely disposes of, but it does not offer these sites to our members. All too often, our members learn too late, and too frequently from the media, that a site has been sold. One solution is to give French-language school boards a chance to acquire at market value—we are not asking for money—federal sites that are put up for sale.

In 2018, your committee went to Vancouver and discovered the same problem. For more than 20 years, the school board has not been able to build a school west of Main Street for lack of a site. The federal government implemented a disposal process that would meet the needs of this school board. The process began in 2005, but the school board still does not have a school west of Main Street.

These problems exist across the country. For that reason the committee recommended in 2019 that the Official Languages Act include “a provision ensuring that the educational and cultural infrastructure needs of official language minority communities are identified as a priority in the Government of Canada's disposal process for surplus real property”. Unfortunately, Bill C‑13 is silent on that point.

Mr. Chair, you signed that report. Mr. Généreux, you signed that report. Mr. Samson, you signed that report. The Honourable Mona Fortier also signed that report. I mention it because, as the President of the Treasury Board, she has the discretionary authority, but not the obligation, to improve the directive on the disposal of real property.

The directive in effect since 2006 specified that when disposing of real property, federal institutions were to consider the interests of communities, including official language minority communities. Despite that, school boards were ignored. Therefore, many of them have called for the Official Languages Act to be amended so that it expressly gives school boards a right of first refusal for federal sites subject to disposal.

The directive was amended last year. You would think that would be a good thing. However, the changes did not improve the directive. What I mentioned earlier was included in the 2006 directive, but it has disappeared. Now federal institutions only have an obligation to inform official language communities that they intend to dispose of a site. They are not required to inform them of when or how.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Chartrand.

That is all the time we have right now. You can make clarifications by answering questions from the various political parties.

I now give the floor to Ms. Bouffard of the Université de Saint‑Boniface.

You have five minutes.

[Sophie Bouffard, President, Université de Saint-Boniface]

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Thank you for the invitation to appear before you today. I am the president of the Université de Saint‑Boniface. My comments will focus on the various aspects of Bill C‑13 that affect post-secondary education more directly.

I would like to begin my presentation with some of the improvements to and the strengths of Bill C‑13 as tabled.

The fact that federal institutions will now have to implement positive measures that they consider to be appropriate so that members of French linguistic minorities have more opportunities to pursue quality lifelong learning, from early childhood to post-secondary education, is a significant improvement over the previous bill. Even more telling, this commitment recognizes the particular status and the vulnerability of French in Canada and underscores the need to support sectors that are essential to enhancing the vitality of French linguistic minorities and to protecting and promoting the presence of strong institutions that serve these minorities.

The Université de Saint‑Boniface is one of those core institutions for the francophone population, but its survival constantly faces serious challenges. Bill C‑13 rightly recognizes the key role that post-secondary institutions play in achieving the objectives. Together with its educational and community partners, the Université de Saint‑Boniface is actively working on building a solid education continuum in Manitoba. It is impossible to have a strong sector, from early childhood to grade 12, without post-secondary institutions that have solid foundations, strong roots in the community and that are positioned to continually innovate.

Our universities and colleges are not just pertinent in the silo of education, they are also essential because they support our communities in the areas of health and social services, wealth creation and much more.

The national dialogue on post-secondary education in the francophone minority context has confirmed the contributions of institutions such as the Université de Saint‑Boniface to intellectual life, the training of a bilingual work force, technological and social innovation, the transmission of language and culture, and the creation of inclusive French social and cultural spaces.

The report entitled “Language Used at Work by Graduates of English, French or Bilingual Post-secondary Institutions”, which was released in April 2022, supports these findings. According to this study, 49% of Université de Saint‑Boniface graduates subsequently embark on a career where they work primarily in French. That is an important indicator that confirms that Université de Saint‑Boniface meets a real need in Manitoba and elsewhere for graduates who are officially bilingual. Our study programs are of strategic importance.

We would like to make three suggestions.

In the bill, the federal government recognizes the importance of the contributions of provincial and territorial governments. Clearly, we need to ensure that the federal government's investments remain foundational. However, it is essential that the funding mechanisms be overhauled.

For example, last summer, a call for proposals was launched by the Department of Canadian Heritage as part of a $121.3‑million investment in post-secondary minority-language institutions. The Université de Saint‑Boniface was unable to submit projects for a number of reasons: deadlines that were too short to develop new non-recurring projects; insufficient time to work with the province, which was not able to provide a financial contribution that quickly; and the fact that the university had already reached its funding limit for new initiatives. Moreover, the new recurring provincial investment of $1.4 million, created to enhance the education and nursing programs so as to address staffing shortages, was ineligible as the provincial contribution to a non-recurring project. That is very unfortunate.

The bill must result in the implementation of efficient mechanisms that will ensure a certain equity across the country and that will have lasting impacts.

With respect to research conducted in French, Bill C‑13 states that one of the areas where federal institutions could take positive steps is support for “the creation and dissemination of information in French that contributes to the advancement of scientific knowledge in any discipline”. This statement seems restrictive. With substantive equality in mind, it should be revised to make these measures more foundational for post-secondary education in minority communities, which, in general and by their very nature, focus mainly on education. We must also better respond to the needs of the francophone population.

Finally, with respect to the clause on adopting a policy on francophone immigration, we would like to express a wish, that the policy that is developed accommodate the international student population attending post-secondary institutions, which represent an important pathway for immigration and economic and social integration into our minority communities.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Bouffard.

We will now begin the first round of questions.

For the information of the witnesses, each political party will have six minutes to ask their questions.

The first speaker is Mr. Godin, the first vice-chair of the committee, who has six minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here and for participating in our study on Bill C‑13. The purpose of our study is to improve the Official Languages Act. I am not convinced that this is the current government's goal, but that is another issue.

My first question is for Mr. Chartrand.

In your speech, you talked about the fact that there is currently some redundancy. In your opinion, if we want to be efficient, that redundancy must be eliminated.

Mr. Chartrand, do you have anything to add on that point?

[Denis Chartrand]

Thank you for your question.

As set out in the bill, no one is currently in charge. There is no champion to ensure that all departments are doing what they are supposed to do. That is what is happening now. A minister could be appointed, but it depends on whether they are a francophile or not. We have to look at what is useful to us and what isn't.

In our opinion, the act should require that someone be designated as a champion, to ensure that the directives, such as those for the Treasury Board, are respected. Furthermore, this should not be a directive or regulation, but a law.

We are asking that the issue of disposing of federal sites be enshrined in the act. That is what we are proposing. In fact, we wrote the text for you.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chartrand.

We will do our research, and we understand your request

As you know, my time is very limited. So I'd like to ask you another question straight away.

When you say leader or champion, do you mean the Treasury Board?

For our part, we have heard from several organizations. They all told us that this is imperative for the effectiveness of Bill C‑13, which aims to curb the decline of French and to protect and promote it. A ship can have only one captain, and we suggest that he or she be a member of the Treasury Board.

Is that a solution?

In your opinion, is that an essential condition?

[Denis Chartrand]

I would say so, yes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chartrand, you also mentioned that a report was signed by various members of the committee, including Mr. Samson, Mr. Généreux and Ms. Fortier.

Ms. Fortier was not president of the Treasury Board at the time, but she is now.

Have you had any discussions with her? Has the President of the Treasury Board had any discussions with the Ontario Public School Boards' Association about improving the bill?

[Denis Chartrand]

She has not had any discussions with the association. However, the school board on which I sit wrote to Mr. Duclos, the former president of the Treasury Board. It was Ms. Fortier, the current president, who wrote back to us saying that the current directive allows communities to grow, which I do not agree with.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

You are saying that the President of the Treasury Board responded to your request by saying that the contents of the act fully address your concerns.

[Denis Chartrand]

She told us that this is the current process.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Is her interpretation correct?

Your association works on the ground every day to defend French in Ontario and throughout Canada. In your opinion, are the statements made by the President of the Treasury Board accurate?

[Denis Chartrand]

No, we need a champion and we need it set out in the act. We don't need regulations that someone can change, especially not public servants.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

That leads me to another question.

Mr. Chartrand, do you think that proceeding with a less rigid law and allowing current legislators to set regulations is the solution for protecting French in Canada?

[Denis Chartrand]

As I said earlier, I am an engineer. When I cross a bridge, I would rather it be designed well, not quickly.

If we are going to modernize the Official Languages Act, we need to do it right.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chartrand, I'm delighted to hear you say that. Indeed, this is what we are trying to make the current government understand. Unfortunately, they are not listening or open to it.

I agree with you wholeheartedly: This law will enable French to overcome the resistance it is currently experiencing. If the act is not strong enough, there will be no French in Canada in 50 years. French is in decline right now.

I predict that the census in 10 years will confirm what we have recently learned, that the use of French is declining. It is sad to say, but I agree with the comments you made.

Are you familiar with the 18 recommendations made by the Commissioner of Official Languages?

[Denis Chartrand]

I have heard about them, but I do not know all the details.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Okay.

I'd like to ask you another question about the idea of a central agency.

Is a central agency essential—and I want to reiterate that word—to ensuring that Bill C‑13 is effective? Is the Treasury Board the only option for a captain to steer the ship?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have 25 seconds left.

[Denis Chartrand]

If we want to create a strong law that defends the francophone community, then the answer is yes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chartrand.

I have a quick question for the president of Université de Saint‑Boniface.

Would language provisions allow the Université de Saint‑Boniface and the other regions to be more effective? Are language provisions the answer?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That's an excellent question, Mr. Godin. The witness can answer it in a future round, because your time is up.

The next questions will be asked by Mr. Serré, the committee's parliamentary secretary.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here.

I was once a school trustee in Ontario. Mr. Chartrand and Ms. Girard, I thank you very much for the very important work you do to promote the francophone community in Ontario. We will carefully study the recommendations and proposed amendments that you have made. Thank you very much.

Ms. Bouffard, I met you at the ACUFC last week. I thank you for all the work you are doing on the post-secondary summit conference.

Our committee has held over 12 meetings and welcomed 54 witnesses; 21 briefs were tabled. The witnesses were clear that they want to see Bill C‑13 passed as quickly as possible. We need to study the amendments and proceed with the clause-by-clause study of the bill so that it can be passed.

Do you agree that Bill C‑13 needs to be passed as quickly as possible?