Official Languages Committee on Dec. 6th, 2022

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In that case, I'll continue in the next round.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the minister for being here.

To restore and maintain their demographic weight, francophone and Acadian communities are asking that, in 2024, you adopt a restorative target of 12% per year. That target would gradually rise to 20% per year by 2036.

Can you confirm that your department will set targets of that size starting in 2024?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Before I set goals for the future, I think I need to demonstrate that I can achieve the goals we've developed with the communities that exist today. We worked, before my tenure in this position, with FCFA

and other stakeholders to establish the targets.

I think it's essential that we achieve our goals before setting bigger ones, especially if we want to gain the community's trust. It isn't good to have no plan to achieve a goal. A plan is essential if we want to develop a new strategy and a new target with the francophone community's involvement.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Okay.

It should be noted that these figures don't come from us, but rather from the FCFA and the francophone communities. We hope you'll show some confidence in the initial steps that are taken and that you'll acknowledge that much more has to be done in the next few years.

My second question concerns the programs.

Your department will need new and ambitious resources to meet the target requested by the francophone and Acadian communities. The status quo is no longer an option. More specifically, the communities want you to adopt a francophone immigration program that's separate from other existing programs and that's tailor-made to accommodate the needs and situation of the Canadian francophonie.

Will your department once again develop separate programs for francophones?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I've considered the possibility of establishing a separate new program for francophones, but I've also considered the option of using that new tool, the express entry system, to select people with French language skills.

I think there are two ways to achieve the same objective. I won't make any decisions today because I need to understand all the available possibilities for increasing the number of francophone newcomers. If I see that the new flexibility of the express entry system can accelerate Canada's capacity to welcome more francophones to Canada, then I'll use that tool.

For the moment, my perception of the path forward is incomplete. There may be other paths that my office and my department could explore, which would help increase the number of opportunities for welcoming more francophones. If that's the case, I will select that tool.

I have to complete that exercise first so I can then determine the best strategy that I should adopt before making a decision.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

All right. I understand.

We agree with you: there clearly is a demand for a special program.

We have to use the tools that are already at our disposal, but if we want to achieve a much more ambitious objective, which is necessary in order to protect French, there clearly has to be a special program for the francophonie to reflect the situation on the ground in the communities.

This week we learned that IRCC had begun efforts to reduce the study permit refusal rate for African students.

What specific measures will your department take to ensure that francophone African students are admitted in the same proportions as students from other regions of the world?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

We intend to take steps to increase the number of francophone students.

As I mentioned, the approval rate has increased from 27% in 2021 to 41% today. We will also be opening an office in Cameroon to provide services in the western and central regions of Africa.

We're still conducting promotional activities and recruitment campaigns. We're still communicating with applicants to inform them that settlement services are provided in their communities and in Canada.

There's no magic bullet, but I think it's essential that we continue increasing the approval rate and the number of francophone newcomers in the foreign student program, as well as the number of francophones in general. It's essential that francophones and individuals who speak French be able to continue living in French in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Ashton. You kept exactly to your six minutes.

We have time for another speaker before we suspend in order to vote.

Mr. Généreux, you are the next speaker.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us today, Minister.

I had a chance to speak to your parliamentary secretary, Marie-France Lalonde, at the Sommet de la Francophonie in Djerba a week and a half ago.

She was accompanied by a group of individuals representing francophone organizations from across Canada, including Yukon, Ontario and New Brunswick, which was well represented. Those people wanted us to pass Bill C-13 as soon as possible. They were clearly concerned about the bill now before us compared to what already exists.

What do you think is the fundamental difference regarding immigration between Bill C-13 and the act that has been around for 50 years?

What is the fundamental difference in this bill that will facilitate your work in future?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Generally speaking, the bill would require ministers to continue increasing francophones' demographic weight. Various characteristics of the bill acknowledge the significance of the contribution of francophone immigration in the act for the first time, in addition to recognizing that immigration is a factor that specifically contributes to maintaining and increasing demographic weight. My duty as Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship is to adopt a francophone immigration policy to support the vitality of the community by means of objectives, targets and indicators. It's very important that we be accountable to Canadians.

It's up to the minister and the department to publish the data. That isn't an obligation under the act.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Pardon me, minister, I completely understand that it isn't an obligation, but the fact nevertheless remains that the bill contains a provision on immigration. In actual fact though, the new bill doesn't necessarily provide tools that would provide you with more resources. At any event, that's my understanding. You may see the matter differently.

When we went to Djerba, I noticed that young people in Tunisia, in North Africa in particular, and Reunion Island, want to come to Canada. These are francophone countries. The young people I spoke to face extraordinary obstacles. There's also a very significant financial aspect, and we are somewhat self-contradictory in the way we invite these people to come to Canada.

There's no reference to relations, promotion and so on in this bill, which concerns the French language, but the fact nevertheless remains that there's an intrinsic and direct link between Canada's expectations and what one can actually do. There's a major discrepancy between the two.

What I'm trying to say is a bit vague, but many young people would like to come to Canada. Unfortunately, the obstacles to doing that are enormous.

I'm pleased to see that we've now reached the 4% threshold. I congratulate you on that. The Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne, or FCFA, is aiming for 20%. Do you think that's potentially a realistic target?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

It isn't possible right now because we haven't accumulated that many applications. We couldn't get to 20% this year even if I processed all the applications in IRCC's backlog.

Going forward, it's essential that we invest in promotion and recruitment in order to show interested individuals that the idea of coming to and staying in Canada is an option.

and eventually to maybe even become a permanent resident, but without letting so many more young people know.... You may have met a lot of them, but not every person in French-speaking countries is thinking about leaving their country of origin, let alone coming to Canada.

Mr. Chair, are you—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Minister; the five minutes are up.

How much time do we have left before the vote, Madam Clerk? Is it three minutes?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Michelle Legault]

It's approximately eight minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Then we will continue with you, Ms. Kayabaga. We will interrupt you if necessary. We will keep track of the time and you may continue after the vote.

You have three minutes.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Minister. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

A number of witnesses recently came to discuss the fact that they are settled in Canada. They are francophones. French is their mother tongue. They want to stay here. One of the tests they have to take to be granted permanent residence in Canada is a language proficiency test.

Why should we continue asking francophones to take a language proficiency test?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

That doesn't just concern francophone immigrants. We do the same thing new with anglophone immigrants who have graduated from a Canadian English-language institution.

I'm open to the committee's suggestions for improving the ability of anglophone and francophone immigrants to settle in Canada and be granted permanent residence. We should conduct a study on the relevance of these tests.

I don't think this will be an issue that comes up with regard to Bill C-13. If the committee makes a recommendation on this, that will be an opportunity for me to introduce some effective strategies.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

This committee has previously been told that linguistic expectations of francophone immigrants should be lowered. They've been educated in Canada and have the same language level as Canadian francophones, in some instances even higher levels. Some Canadian francophones can't pass those tests.

Minister, I'd like to congratulate you on the decline in the refusal rates relative to last year's rates. My colleague spoke to you about the challenges that North African students must overcome in order to come to Canada. However, the figures that you gave are quite high.

Would you please tell us about the announcement that was recently made about the change in the refusal rate for francophone students from Africa?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Ms. Kayabaga and Minister, I must interrupt you.

Keep that question in mind, Minister.

We will suspend in order to go and vote, and we will then resume as soon as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We will resume.

Ms. Kayabaga, you have a little more than two and a half minutes left. Perhaps you could take 10 seconds to remind Minister Fraser of the context of your question.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, earlier I discussed the refusal rates that my colleague had mentioned in connection with the applications of African students.

First of all, I would like to congratulate you on the progress that has been made on this bill.

Would you please discuss the rise in the percentage of applications from North African students that have been accepted? And what about the 4.4% target that the department has set? Do you think it can meet it?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for your question.

Before answer it, I'd like to thank you for the questions you've asked at previous meetings of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration concerning international students and for the time you've devoted to that. I've made some changes, and I thank you for supporting those efforts.

The rate at which applications from North African students are accepted has risen from 27% to 41%. That's good news, and we must continue our efforts to increase the acceptance rate for North African students as well as students from central Africa, western Africa and sub-Saharan Africa. We're still taking measures to that end and building relations with the home countries. We send them information on our programs, which fosters ties between those countries and Canada's institutions.

It's essential that we continue making efforts to raise the 4.4% target. It's hard to get this year's figure because the final result will depend on the decisions that families make whether to travel to Canada. Whatever the case may be, we have the capacity to process the applications and to meet that target, but it's difficult for the department to determine whether a family will arrive in December or January.

We have a target for 2023. I'm convinced that our government can welcome 4.4% francophone immigrants in 2023. We are very close to that percentage this year.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Minister.

I now give the floor to Mr. Beaulieu for two and a half minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.