Official Languages Committee on Dec. 13th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

The only thing you can do is ask for unanimous consent to withdraw your amendment completely. You can't amend it.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I don't want to do that. However, I do want to emphasize that we support the right of first nations to ensure the future of their languages, and we believe that mechanisms must be put in place in that regard.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Your point is duly noted. However, someone else around the table will have to move a subamendment, if necessary.

Had you finished, Mr. Beaulieu?

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Yes, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Ms. Ashton, go ahead.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to share our position with the committee. We agree with some of the points in the amendment, but we oppose some, too, particularly those that delete certain provisions of the bill. Having said that, I'm grateful for the openness that has just been shown to first nations in relation to indigenous languages. I think that's essential.

However, we do have a problem with the idea of removing certain provisions from the bill. I understand the spirit of this amendment, but we wanted to let you know where we stand on the deletions it proposes.

I also wanted to thank Mr. Généreux. I think he made an important point about Mr. Housefather's comment.

For our part, we hope to see progress on this bill. It's already 12:44 p.m., and we haven't even voted on two amendments. I think communities across the country, including francophones in Quebec, want us to move forward, even though this bill requires some debate. I'm concerned that the debate is hardly moving forward, given that we still have dozens of amendments to consider in the next few weeks.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

Ms. Lattanzio, go ahead.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My next question is, again, for the government officials.

We know that the scope, from the get-go, is to promote and protect the French language across the country. Our views are in Quebec. The anglophones were quite in agreement with that premise, so long as it's not to the detriment of the linguistic minority community and, in Quebec, obviously, the anglophones.

I want to have your opinion on the amendment that's being proposed.

In doing away with lines 19 to 44 on page two.... I will take the time to read them and ask you if this would meet that objective. That is, would we, in fact, by deleting all of these paragraphs, be promoting and protecting the French language, and not to the detriment of the anglophone linguistic communities in Quebec?

And whereas the Government of Canada recognizes the importance of providing opportunities for everyone in Canada to learn a second official language and the contribution of everyone in Canada who speaks both official languages to a mutual appreciation between the two official language communities of Canada;

And whereas the Government of Canada recognizes the importance of supporting sectors that are essential to enhancing the vitality of English and French linguistic minority communities and protecting and promoting the presence of strong institutions serving those communities;

And whereas the Government of Canada recognizes that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation contributes through its activities to enhancing the vitality of the English and French linguistic minority communities and to the protection and promotion of both official languages;

And whereas the Government of Canada recognizes the importance of the contribution of francophone immigration to enhancing the vitality of French linguistic minority communities and that immigration is one of the factors that contributes to maintaining or increasing the demographic weight of those communities;

And whereas the Government of Canada recognizes the presence of English or French linguistic minority communities in each province and territory;

[Julie Boyer]

Thank you very much for your question. I will refrain from giving my opinion, but I will explain what this amendment intends to do.

The first part, part (a) of the amendment, says, “the Government of Canada recognizes the importance”, but it would be modified to say “the duty” to provide opportunities for everyone to learn a second language. Here, I want to note this creates an obligation on the federal government in the education sector, which is an entirely provincial jurisdiction, so we're just imposing that on provinces.

The second part of this amendment would suppress or delete that government “recognizes the importance of supporting sectors that are essential to enhancing the vitality of English and French linguistic minority communities”. The intention was to reflect what was added in part 7 of the legislation to support institutions in official language minority communities that are important to the vitality of these communities. That would be removed.

We would also remove that the Government of Canada recognizes the contribution of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation—in French, la Société Radio-Canada—and that the creation of news supports the vitality of official language minority communities.

Then, if I continue, part (c) of the Bloc's amendment would recognize the importance of the contribution of francophone immigration to enhance the vitality of French linguistic minority communities and that immigration is one of the factors that contribute to maintaining or increasing the demographic weight of those communities. That would be maintained to say, “and increasing the demographic weight” and this also creates an obligation.

I don't have the paper, because I can't work my Zoom.

[Sarah Boily]

It's basically changing the word to “restoring”.

The French uses the verb “assurer”, so there's the nuance.

We're still talking about “rétablissement et l'accroissement”—it's hard to do this in both languages—but we changed the word to “restore”.

[Julie Boyer]

I'm going to continue in French.

Thus, the phrase “to ensure the vitality of francophone minorities” creates another obligation for the federal government, but we're talking about a jurisdiction shared with the provinces. The federal government does not have all the necessary levers to ensure that immigration contributes to increasing the demographic weight of francophones.

I'm going to turn it over to my colleague, Mr. Desruisseaux, from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.

[Alain Desruisseaux]

It is indeed a nuance. The French term “assurer”, or “ensure” in English, implies that the Government of Canada would have an obligation to ensure certain results in an area of shared jurisdiction.

The provinces play a fundamental role here, never mind the fact that the success of francophone immigration depends on a multitude of factors. These include attracting and retaining immigrants, as well as the labour market, which remains fundamental. Of course, delivering essential services, including health care and education, in the communities or different regions also means that the provinces, territories and municipalities have an essential role to play.

[Julie Boyer]

Thank you very much.

If I may continue, amendment BQ‑1 seeks to delete lines 36 and 37 on page 2 of the French version of Bill C‑13, recognizing “the diversity of the provincial and territorial language regimes....” Part (e) of amendment BQ‑1 simply recognizes the Charter of the French Language and “that French is the official and common language of Quebec”.

If amendment BQ‑1 passes, we would lose the qualifiers regarding provincial and territorial language regimes. We would also lose the idea of recognizing the importance of maintaining and enhancing the use of other languages; the idea of reclaiming, revitalizing and strengthening indigenous languages; and the reminder that all legal obligations related to official languages apply at all times, including during emergencies, such as a pandemic. Amendment BQ‑1 therefore deletes quite a few elements.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Ms. Boyer, your reading of this amendment is similar to mine, so it is also my understanding that several important elements would be lost, particularly to the detriment of minority language communities, without achieving the objective of promoting and protecting French.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Lattanzio.

Mr. Dalton, go ahead.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I realize that committee business is not progressing very quickly, since we are only on the second amendment. However, this is a very important and worthwhile discussion. I very much appreciated the comments made by my colleagues Mr. Housefather and Mr. Godin, along with everyone else.

Everyone here agrees that the French language is in decline, and this affects us all. My colleague Mr. Vis and I see this in British Columbia, like everywhere else, and we want to better protect the French language. This is important to me.

I also lived in Quebec a long time ago. I did my first three years of high school in English in Chibougamau, so I'm sensitive to the situation of anglophones in Quebec.

I'm really torn about all this, because I know that being surrounded by a sea of anglophones makes francophones in Quebec more vulnerable.

All of these things will influence my vote. It's important to look at both sides of the situation, and I just wanted to say that I'm grateful for this discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Your comments are very much appreciated, Mr. Dalton.

Mr. Vis, go ahead.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Madam Lattanzio has covered some of the points I wanted to raise.

Potentially, Madam Boyer can explain this to us. This is the preamble of the act, and you said that this would impact X, Y and Z significantly. My understanding of legislation is that a preamble is not something the courts would generally interpret or would assume the Government of Canada would be obliged to follow. Even if I agreed with some of the statements you made, I would challenge your interpretation of the impact the preamble will have on the applicability of the legislation.

Could you comment on that, please?

[Julie Boyer]

My understanding, but perhaps I'll turn to the legislative clerk, would be that the entirety of the law is taken into consideration when it's interpreted by the courts.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I would remind committee members that the role of legislative clerks is strictly to provide procedural interpretation, certainly not to provide legal advice.

Your question is excellent, Mr. Vis, but you need legal advice for that.

Ms. Boyer, go ahead.

[Julie Boyer]

I can confirm that what I just said is correct. I would also point out that the preamble essentially summarizes everything in the bill. If certain parts of the bill are changed, the preamble may very well also need to be amended, at the very end.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Yes, Mr. Vis, the floor is yours on that.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you.

In that context of “reclaiming, revitalizing and strengthening Indigenous languages”, what other sections of this law actually do that?

I represent one of the most diverse ridings in Canada. I have six different first nations with their own unique languages. Is there anything in this law, other than this paragraph here in the preamble, that gives money or assurances that indigenous languages will be enhanced or protected?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Ms. Boily, would you like to add anything?

[Sarah Boily]

I'm looking for the exact clause, but yes, there is a reference to the importance of maintaining and protecting the revitalization of the indigenous languages. It's proposed section 83 in Bill C-13.

I can read it out loud. It's about rights relating to other languages. It states:

Nothing in this Act abrogates or derogates from any legal or customary right acquired or enjoyed either before or after the coming into force of this Act with respect to any language other than English or French, including any Indigenous language.

That's the reference.