Official Languages Committee on Feb. 10th, 2023

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'm having some trouble understanding this.

Replacing proposed subsection 25(3) with wording that says the federal government would make a contribution is not enough for the application of proposed subsection 25(1). I find that the proposal weakens the wording.

The federal government is always required to communicate in both official languages. If there is a grant from, or participation by, the federal government, then I can only hope the press release would be bilingual.

I'm not at ease with this proposal. I I get the idea. Nor would I want everyday activities to be limited or restricted. On the other hand, I have trouble accepting that we have to spell out the fact that we are not speaking about simply a financial contribution. It's not simple at all for me; everything is important, particularly for organizations in minority communities.

I'm not comfortable with this.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I don't want to explain from the chair, but allow me to tell you what I understood about what Mr. Newman said. He can correct me as required.

Let's take the example of transfer payments that would be made under the health agreement that the federal government has just signed with the provinces and territories. If we were to leave subsection 25(3) as proposed in your amendment, Mr. Godin, the federal transfer payments to the provinces, based on the country's obligations…

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I understand you. That's why I'm trying to come up with a solution. I have no wording to suggest this morning. My proposal may be too demanding, but Ms. Ashton's is not strong enough.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Okay.

Are there any other interventions?

If not, then we will decide by voting on the subamendment.

(The subamendment is carried: yeas 11; nays 0) [See Minutes]

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That brings us to amendment CPC-12 as amended.

Please go ahead, Mr. Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

I'd like to ask for clarification from Ms. Boyer or from the Treasury Board Secretariat representative, to allay Mr. Godin's concerns.

Now that the subamendment has been adopted, how will it affect the amendment?

[Julie Boyer]

I'll let Mr. Newman explain the impact of the subamendment that was just adopted.

[Warren Newman]

The subamendment establishes the guidelines required for the implementation of the duty in question. The federal government does indeed have a duty to ensure that the services actually provided by third parties on behalf of the federal government are offered in both official languages. The wording establishes these guidelines while underscoring the fact that it is understood that a mayor financial contribution from the federal government to a third party is not enough to call for the application of proposed subsection 25(1). We believe that the modified amendment meets the criteria set out by the Supreme Court of Canada in CALDECH, the landmark case for relations between principals and agents.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

As there are no other comments, we will vote on amendment CPC-12 as amended.

(The amendment as amended is carried: yeas 11; nays 0). See Minutes

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That brings us to amendment CPC-13, which is on page 38 of our package of amendments.

Go ahead, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Amendment CPC-13 proposes that BillC-13 be amended by adding after line 12 on page 8 the following new clause:

12.1 The Act is amended by adding the following after section 31: 31.1 The provisions of this Part shall be implemented while taking into account the commitment to protect and promote the French language.

In other words, we want to specify that Part IV of the Official Languages Act must comply with Part VII.

That then is amendment CPC-13.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Mr. Serré, you have the floor.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Parts VII and IV are obviously important. They address both official language minority communities in the country.

However, I have a concern about the impact of repeating general provisions that are already in the interpretative provisions. The protection and promotion of French is mentioned in the act for certain locations, but not for others.

I'm not a legal expert or a lawyer, but I'm wondering whether that might lead to interpretation problems in court. Could one of the government officials perhaps answer this question?

[Julie Boyer]

I will be happy to answer, Mr. Serré.

As you said, we are reiterating here what was already said in the proposed preamble, in the proposed sections to clarify the purpose of the Act, and in the interpretation provisions proposed in Bill C-13. These are all provisions that have been adopted and already specify that the particular situation of Quebec or of French will be taken into account. Amendment CPC-13 states that "the commitment to protect and promote the French language" must be taken into account.

As to whether that amendment could interfere with the application of the act, that is a question that arises often. My colleague at the Department of Justice could give you more detail.

[Warren Newman]

I would just add that we must always keep in mind that the purpose of the provisions of Part IV of the Official Languages Act, like the provisions of Parts III and V, is to apply section 20 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which provides that the public are entitled to use the official language of their choice to communicate with and receive services from the federal government.

We already have these principles of interpretation, and you have added another point, in the amendment proposed by Mr. Beaulieu the other day. So we have a set of interpretation principles that govern the overall interpretation of the Act.

Part IV of the Official Languages Act already deals with the application of the act. We are no longer talking about principles; this is about how to give tangible effect to the public's right to be served by and communicate with federal institutions in the official language of their choice. So we don't see the point of adding interpretive provisions in this part of the act. Those provisions already exist in the proposed preamble, in the proposed sections to clarify the purpose of the Act, and in the interpretation provisions proposed in the bill.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Newman.

Is there any further debate?

Mr. Godin, the floor is yours.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Godin, I will repeat the saying: "You can't have too much of a good thing." However, I do understand what the officials are saying.

I propose that we proceed with the vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I didn't know that "you can't have too much of a good thing" was a recognized saying in French literature, but I like the image.

I call the question on amendment CPC-13.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5.)

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We will now move on to amendment BQ-10, which is found at page 39 of the bundle of amendments.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Amendment BQ-10 proposes to amend the bill by adding a new clause after line 12 on page 8.

The act says that the Governor in Council may make regulations for the purpose of section 22 prescribing the circumstances in which there is significant demand.

In fact, this would remove paragraph 32(1)(d), which says that the Governor in Council may prescribe circumstances, in relation to the public or the travelling public, for the purpose of section 24.

The purpose of amendment BQ-10 is to guarantee the availability of services in French in Canadian federal institutions that operate outside Canada. This is necessary to ensure better representation of the French fact outside Canada and to avoid francophones on missions outside the country who want to interact with Canadian federal institutions being discouraged from doing so because of a language barrier.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

Is there any further debate?

I call the question on amendment BQ-10.

(Amendment negatived: nays 10; yeas 1. [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

This brings us to amendment BA-11, which is found at page 40 of our documents.

Mr. Beaulieu, the floor is yours.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

The objective of amendment BQ-11, again, is to guarantee the availability of services in French in federal institutions operating outside Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Is there any debate?

I call the question on amendment BQ-11.

(Amendment negatived: nays 10; yeas 1. [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We will now move on to amendment CPC-14, which is found at page 41 of the bundle of amendments.

I would point out that if amendment CPC-14 is adopted, amendment BA-12 cannot be moved, since they are identical.

Mr. Godin, the floor is yours.