Official Languages Committee on Feb. 9th, 2022

[Raymond Théberge]

Thank you for the question.

I understand the interest in situations like that, but unfortunately I can't comment on specific individual cases.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Generally speaking, would it not be good to have—

[Raymond Théberge]

I will give the floor to Ms. Giguère, general counsel for the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages, because she is more familiar with the process.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We are down to only five seconds, which doesn't leave enough time. Perhaps you will be able to further elaborate when you answer other questions along the way, Mr. Théberge.

We now go to NDP member Niki Ashton.

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Commissioner.

Have you had any meetings with the Minister of Official Languages or any of her team members to discuss the modernization of the Official Languages Act?

Were you consulted?

[Raymond Théberge]

I wouldn't say I was consulted, but I requested a meeting with Minister Petitpas Taylor. At the meeting, I had the opportunity to make some important points to her, items which I felt needed to be part of the next draft of the bill.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I noted that you did not consider your meeting a consultation.

Do you believe the government understands the importance of expanding the Commissioner's powers?

Do they understand how important it is to give the Commissioner the power to impose monetary penalties or establish an administrative tribunal?

[Raymond Théberge]

The Minister was very open to the idea of giving the Commissioner the tools they need to fulfill their role.

As I mentioned, the first draft of the act included the ability to enter into binding agreements and issue compliance orders. Now, there has been a lot of talk for some time about administrative monetary penalties. In some situations, they may be the only tool that will work. A number of stakeholders in the field have requested it.

In my opinion, the Minister listened to what we had to say.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Commissioner, you spoke briefly of the Federal Court of Appeal's ruling on Part VII of the Official Languages Act.

The government explained to us that the Federal Court of Appeal ordered that positive measures be better defined in the act. It's surprising that we have reached this point, since we have known for a very long time that positive measures needed to be better defined.

What do you think of the reasons the government gave for not keeping its promise to introduce the bill in the first 100 days of its mandate?

[Raymond Théberge]

Any delay in tabling a bill will inevitably delay its passage.

In the original version of Bill C‑32, the language in Part VII did not thwart Justice Gascon's decision. It's extremely important that I mention that.

In some ways, the timing could not be better with respect to the Federal Court of Appeals decision. It clarifies the principles needed to give Part VII more teeth. We should even incorporate some aspects of the decision into Part VII to ensure their sustainability.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I'm going to change the subject, Mr. Théberge. I would like to ask you a question about immigration.

The 4.4% target for francophone immigrants outside Quebec was established based on an assumed correlation between the proportion of francophone immigrants and the demographic weight of francophone minority communities.

Over and above immigration targets, what policies should the government put in place to stop the decline of francophone communities, ensure that immigration targets are met and ensure that these communities thrive?

[Raymond Théberge]

First, as you mentioned, we're supposed to reach the 4.4% target by 2023, but obviously we're not going to get there. This means that over 75,000 francophone immigrants who we could have welcomed to Canada, outside of Quebec, will not be coming. The demographic impact will be felt for a generation, if not longer.

The government really needs to have a policy for francophone immigrants outside Quebec. I would even say that Part VII of the act should include a specific obligation for Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, to set a much more ambitious target in order to maintain a balance between the two communities. The balance is being thrown more and more off-kilter as the years go by, which has an impact on the quality of services, education and so on.

Therefore, I feel that specific obligations to create a francophone minority immigration program should be included in Part VII. It may be one of the only ways we can ensure accountability.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Absolutely, francophone immigration is a very topical issue for us in northern Manitoba, an area that you know well.

Should this be a priority for the department and the government, in addition to the Official Languages Act?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That will be all for now, Commissioner. You can answer that a little later or in further rounds of questions.

We will now begin the second round. This time we will have five-minute or two-and-a-half-minute periods for questions and answers, depending on the political party. I will point that out.

Mr. Gourde, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank Mr. Théberge for being here today.

I want to come back to one of my colleague Ms. Ashton's questions that startled me, I must admit.

Mr. Théberge, you say that you requested a meeting with the Minister to talk about modernizing the Official Languages Act.

Did you get the impression that, if you hadn't requested the meeting, you would have been left out?

[Raymond Théberge]

I would not have been left out, but it might have taken a little longer for us to meet.

However, I want to reiterate that as an officer of Parliament, it's important to maintain a certain distance from the government, particularly to guarantee impartiality. I believe that my opinion is important, given the experience of my Office. However, what we contribute is based on our past and our expertise. So I feel the Minister would have invited us to talk about official languages and the next draft of the act, but we invited them to meet first in letters to congratulate several ministers and colleagues.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Without question, Mr. Théberge, the Office of the Commissioner has all the expertise needed to contribute a great deal to this modernization effort. Still, I'm flabbergasted to learn that you had to make the first move—I commend you for it—to at least be part of the equation at this historic time. You might have been left out, which would have been very unfortunate.

On another note, at the beginning of your speech, you said you were dealing with unprecedented tensions and disrespect. Do you feel your Office is not necessarily respected by institutions, or even from within? It's unfortunate, but your recommendations are not being followed in many instances. It seems like some are using the Office of the Commissioner as a loophole. When a problem arises, they tell people to file a complaint with the Office of the Commissioner and then they wash their hands of it. I find that sad.

Do you get that impression?

[Raymond Théberge]

I might phrase it a bit differently.

I find that the recommendations we make are acted upon to a significant degree. The problem is that even if they are acted upon, that doesn't necessarily change the behaviour of federal institutions. Federal institutions will very often administer official languages using a risk management approach, that is, if they get a complaint, they deal with the complaint.

I feel it's important now to make sure that people know they can't keep behaving the same way and think that's acceptable.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you. That's it for me.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have one minute and 20 seconds left, Mr. Godin.

Would you like to ask another question?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair. I'll take the ball and run with it. We're all good friends here, but I want to keep my speaking time.

Commissioner, this week you stated that the federal government had entered into agreements with every province except Ontario, but these federal-provincial-territorial agreements don't include a proportionate number of child care spaces for francophone minority communities.

I've been saying for several months that we owe it to ourselves to secure spaces for our francophone children.

Have you spoken to the Minister about this? If so, does she plan to include this in her Official Languages Act modernization bill?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have less than 20 seconds left.

[Raymond Théberge]

It's hard to speculate what we'll find in the bill. However, I feel the child care agreements are a perfect example of how important it is to include language clauses in the modernization bill.

Without them—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Commissioner.

I'm sorry to interrupt, I'm trying to do it as politely as possible.

We now go to Mr. Iacono for five minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here to join in this discussion with us today.

Commissioner, you emphasized that assessments of language requirements for federal public service positions often fall short.

What exactly do these assessments involve?