Official Languages Committee on Feb. 17th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 51 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages. Pursuant to the order of reference adopted on Monday, May 30, 2022, the committee is resuming its examination of Bill C-13, an act to amend the Official Languages Act, to enact the use of French in federally regulated private businesses act and to make related amendments to other acts.

Pursuant to our routine motion, I want to let the committee members know that all the necessary connection tests were done before the meeting. Some issues were detected, and that's why we are getting started a bit late. I want to inform members participating remotely that I will not recognize them if they are not wearing the prescribed headset.

Today, we are resuming clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C‑13.

Welcome to the officials joining us today to support the committee and answer our technical questions.

From the Department of Canadian Heritage, we have Julie Boyer, Marcel Fallu and Chantal Terrien.

From the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, we have Alain Desruisseaux.

From the Department of Justice, we have Warren J. Newman.

Lastly, from the Treasury Board Secretariat, we have Carsten Quell.

Thank you again for being here to share your wise counsel from time to time.

We are picking up clause-by-clause consideration where we left off at the end of Tuesday's meeting, clause 21. We are on CPC‑21.

Over to you, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Some amendments provoke more of a reaction than others, but I don't think CPC‑21 will cause too much wrangling within the Liberals.

To make it easy for everyone to understand, I will explain the amendment as clearly as possible, as you asked us to do at the last meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Just before you move your amendment, Mr. Godin, I want to point out that, if the amendment is adopted, BQ‑24, BQ‑25 and BQ‑27 cannot be moved because of a line conflict.

Please carry on.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Through CPC‑21, at point (a), I am proposing that Bill C-13, in clause 21, be amended by replacing lines 3 and 4 on page 11 with the following:

41 (1) The Government of Canada shall (a) enhance and protect the vitality of the English and French

At point (b) of CPC‑21, I am proposing that clause 21 be amended by replacing line 6 on page 11 with the following:

port and assist their development, taking into

At point (c) of CPC‑21, I am proposing that clause 21 be amended by replacing line 9 on page 11 with the following:

(b) foster the full recognition and use of both En‐

At point (d) of CPC‑21, I am proposing that clause 21 be amended by replacing lines 13 and 14 on page 11 with the following:

due to the predominant use of English, shall protect and promote the French language.

I would just like to add, Mr. Chair, that this amendment merely corrects language in the bill to make it easier to understand. All it does is tidy up the syntax, as far as I'm concerned.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Go ahead, Mr. Beaulieu.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

As mentioned, this amendment would render several Bloc Québécois amendments out of order, so I'd like to move a subamendment. I've sent it to the clerk.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

All right.

Did you provide a hard copy or send it by email?

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I sent it by email.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Very good.

We'll suspend briefly to give everyone a chance to read Mr. Beaulieu's subamendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Did everyone have an opportunity to review Mr. Beaulieu's subamendment to CPC‑21?

Go ahead, Mr. Beaulieu.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Basically, what matters—and this was already mentioned in the white book—is the intention to protect French in Quebec as well.

Proposed subsection 41(1) begins “The Government of Canada is committed to (a) enhancing the vitality of the English and French linguistic minority communities in Canada”. After that, I propose adding “, as well as of francophones in Quebec”.

Then, at lines 9 to 10 on page 11, after “fostering the full recognition and use of both English and French in Canadian society”, I propose adding “while taking into account the fact that French is the official and common language of Quebec.”

I am proposing those two additions.

I want to be clear about the definition of “English linguistic minority communities” being used, so I have a question for the witnesses. My understanding is that the definition is based on the first official language spoken criterion.

Would you mind confirming how exactly you define the term “English linguistic minority communities”?

[Chantal Terrien, Manager, Modernization of the Official Languages Act, Department of Canadian Heritage]

Thank you for your question.

Currently, the Official Languages Act does not set out a definition, strictly speaking.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I see.

It's not in the act. However, the material from the Department of Canadian Heritage refers to the criterion of the first official language spoken.

Isn't that right?

[Chantal Terrien]

The act does not include a definition, but there are certainly several definitions. From a statistics standpoint, one of the definitions takes into account the first official language spoken.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I see.

According to Statistics Canada, the first official language spoken criterion includes 33% of immigrants to Quebec, so a third of immigrants. Using that definition rules out the possibility of ensuring the future French. That means the rate of language transfer to French must be 90% in order to maintain the demographic weight of francophones in Quebec.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

Are there any questions about Mr. Beaulieu's subamendment to CPC‑21?

Go ahead, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

This is for the department officials, Mr. Fallu specifically, because as I understand it, he is the one who drafted the bill.

I have a question about the spirit behind the definition of a linguistic minority. We just heard from Ms. Terrien, but the answer wasn't clear to me. There seem to be a number of definitions.

Can you help us understand this?

Since a linguistic minority community is not defined in the act, which definition do you most often use? When you're working with these data, which definition do you actually use?

[Marcel Fallu, Manager, Modernization of the Official Languages Act, Department of Canadian Heritage]

You're giving me way too much credit.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Perhaps my sources are misinformed.

[Marcel Fallu]

As my colleague mentioned, there is no official definition in the act. For administration purposes, various definitions are used. The preamble to the Official Languages Act—I'm talking about the current version, so prior to the amending clauses that have been adopted so far—refers to English and French linguistic minority communities as integral parts of Canada's two official language communities, in other words, English and French.

It's implicit that the English linguistic minority community is in Quebec and that the French linguistic minority community is outside Quebec. The act doesn't say so in black and white, but that's basically how it works.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

As a lawmaker, I would like to be clear on the definition.

I understand your explanation, but it's a bit loose. When a term isn't clearly defined, it leaves room for interpretation and grey areas.

Can you confirm or deny what I'm saying?

[Marcel Fallu]

I have no opinion on the matter.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Very well.

[Warren Newman, Senior General Counsel, Constitutional, Administrative and International Law Section, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice]

I can provide some clarification.

When the terms English and French linguistic minority communities were used in the 1988 version of the Official Languages Act, which the committee is in the process of amending, they were based in part on section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Specifically, subsection 23(3) of the charter refers to “the English or French linguistic minority population of a province”.

Obviously, that can vary, because sometimes the target population for services is not rights holders, strictly speaking, under section 23, but what is meant by the English or French linguistic minority population of a province is well understood. It's not necessary to further clarify what those concepts refer to, because they are rooted in our daily reality in Canada.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Does section 23 refer to—