Official Languages Committee on Feb. 17th, 2023

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I, too, support the amendment because it can be of benefit to francophones in Quebec. There are also people who struggle with literacy in Quebec.

Can I assume it will apply?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

As chair of the committee, I can't answer that.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'll ask the department officials, then, whether they think the amendment would also apply to francophones in Quebec.

[Marcel Fallu]

That's not what the current commitment says.

Nevertheless, it may be possible under other elements of part VII as amended by Bill C‑13, and even in the current version. It would be a programming decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Since no one else wishes to comment, I will call the vote on NDP amendment 5.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That brings us to CPC‑24, which is on page 73 of the amendments package.

Over to you, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This amendment might seem unimportant, but it's significant. Back in 2019 or 2020, I believe, the Standing Committee on Official Languages got into a bit of a battle with the industry minister at the time, Mr. Bains, and the chief statistician of Canada. All the committee members, including those in the governing Liberal party, who unfortunately aren't here this morning, raised an uproar and banded together to ensure that the long- and short-form censuses enumerated rights holders.

If we want to improve the Official Languages Act, this amendment is crucially important, because it would ensure that the true situation of linguistic minority communities was captured so that they could receive adequate services. Adopting this amendment would show that the government was serious about taking action.

We are modernizing the Official Languages Act, so it's important to keep in mind that it was first drafted back in 1969 and, then, amended in the 1980s. We want to make progress, so I hope no one proposes a word like “estimate”, which would be a setback. We need to work earnestly. This amendment demands that we consider it carefully for the sake of all linguistic minority communities. Otherwise, we are just wasting our time. Unfortunately, I'm getting a bit fired up, but I hope you can hear the passion in my voice.

The bill states that the federal government “is committed to contributing periodically to an estimate of the number of children” of rights holders. That is still a way to avoid truly addressing the needs of linguistic minority communities on the ground. Members need to think seriously before voting against the amendment. The necessity of the amendment couldn't be more obvious, so we need to proceed accordingly. I am reaching out to every voting member of the committee and asking them to move forward, not backward, to look to the future and to truly achieve our goals.

Personally, I have three goals: stopping the decline of French, protecting both official languages, and promoting both official languages. However, we need specific data to do that work—not estimates. This amendment will prove how serious we are about achieving results.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Go ahead, Ms. Ashton.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I don't need the floor anymore, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Over to you, Mr. Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Godin, for proposing this amendment. Obviously, we all agree on this. I don't want to draw out the discussion, but we want to build on the work that was done in 2021. There is no doubt about that.

I simply have a subamendment, which was already sent out to everyone by email. I'll hand it out to the committee members now.

I move that the amendment, proposing to amend clause 21 of Bill C‑13 by replacing lines 20 and 21 on page 11, be amended by

(a) substitution after the words “Government of Canada” with the following: “periodically estimates, using the necessary tools, the number of”, so that the text reads: “(4) The Government of Canada periodically estimates, using the necessary tools, the number of”.

The purpose of the amendment is to build on the work that was done in 2021. All the committee members have worked very hard in the past to demand that rights holders be enumerated.

We can take a break, if need be, but if anyone has questions, we can carry on.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Serré.

Go ahead, Ms. Ashton.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I have a question for the experts about Mr. Serré's subamendment.

First off, I want to say that we, in the NDP, are in favour of ensuring that the questions being put to Canadian households on this subject are clear. We mustn't underestimate how important the short-form census is, so the very important work that the census does needs to capture that. I think we have unanimous agreement on that.

The way the proposed subamendment is worded, would it allow for clear responses regarding the number of rights holders' children? Would it make sure that Statistics Canada puts those questions to all Canadians?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Ms. Boyer, you have the floor.

[Julie Boyer, Assistant Deputy Minister, Official Languages, Heritage and Regions, Department of Canadian Heritage]

Thank you for your question.

We understand the proposed subamendment to mean that the government is going to contribute to an estimate of the number of eligible children. The word “estimate” is used because the census can provide something close to the exact number, but it only represents one moment in time. Therefore, we use “estimate” because it's possible to confirm the exact number of children using the lists provided by school boards, for example.

So the answer to your question, Ms. Ashton, is yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Boyer.

Mr. Généreux, you were on the list. You have the floor.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Boyer, when the subamendment specifies “with whatever tools may be necessary”, do you understand the same thing I do, that there may be other tools than the census?

[Julie Boyer]

The census is the primary tool the federal government would rely on to estimate the number of eligible children, but other provincially held tools are needed to come up with a more accurate estimate.

In particular, I used the example of lists provided by school boards, which would really help confirm the number of children. When you're looking at a census conducted two years ago, other children may have been added since then. Those lists could therefore be used to confirm the number of children.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I don't see what you have just referred to as tools. That is data gathered by the provinces, in this case the school boards. They are not tools, so to speak, but data.

I just want to make sure that the act specifies what tools may be necessary. You understand the intent of Mr. Serré's proposed amendment, right?

Besides the census, which is done every four years now, what tools does the government have to determine the exact number of children in Canada?

[Julie Boyer]

The remaining tools would fall under provincial and territorial jurisdiction in the area of education.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Gourde, you have the floor.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Boyer, you are precisely talking about tools under provincial jurisdiction. Will the amendment require school boards to provide them?

If the school boards say they will not provide the data, the federal government can't get it because school boards are under provincial jurisdiction. Even as an MP, sometimes you have to ask a school board for permission to talk to students. It's fine when you're friends with the principal, but if not, you get locked out.

So imagine if you asked the school board for lists of students! I have done it before because I wanted to send a congratulatory letter for graduation. Some school boards agreed to provide me with the lists, but others turned me down because it's at their discretion.

How are you going to estimate the number of francophone or anglophone children in a province if you run into the same issue we are currently experiencing? In no way does Bill C‑13 require school boards to provide lists. Therefore, the resulting estimate could be inaccurate.

[Julie Boyer]

Thank you very much for your question.

When the government commits to something, it must be able to meet that commitment. The bill states that the Government of Canada commits to providing an estimate periodically, but it will need whatever tools are necessary to do that.

You asked if the school boards could be required to provide that data. The answer is no, because the school boards are under provincial and territorial jurisdiction. Therefore, the federal government cannot encroach on that jurisdiction and require provincially regulated school boards to provide any records.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Boyer.

[Julie Boyer]

Perhaps my colleague could complete my answer.